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Thread: Breakout box best practices

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Breakout box best practices

    I've learned a lot about the DOs and DON'Ts of Breakout Boxes. Here are a few of them all in one place. Hopefully this helps others that are looking for help.

    The first thing is wiring. The first gen BoB had awful push clips that broke with a bit of pressure - I'm glad they switched to screw terminals on the current version. Sadly there is one glaring flaw that remains with the BoB and that is how to wire all the commons together. On my first iteration I wired them all together with a wire nut. I'm not a fan of that approach now for a couple of reasons: 1) it is hard to be sure that every common wire is connected - there is a higher failure rate that a common wire will come out of contact. 2) If you ever want to replace one of the inputs you have to undo the wirenut - again this can lead to issues keeping them all connected together. My approach was to go with a terminal block. I found this one on ebay for just a couple of dollars (including shipping). 7 separate terminals is perfect - each input's common/ground wire gets its own screwdown and one more to wire into the BoB:

    bob.jpg

    The BoB can support up to 6 inputs at a time. On the terminal block there are inputs 1-6, RSV and GND. RSV is reserved, and you should not plug anything into that. GND is ground - or common. This is the wire that needs to be connected to one wire for each of your inputs. The other wire from each input is attached to one of the inputs on the BoB (I1-I6).

    Personally I like to "tin" each wire that I put into a terminal block. Use a soldering iron and a bit of solder put a thin coat on the end of each wire. If you're using stranded wire then make sure to give a light twist to the strands to keep them all together. The advantage of tinning stranded wire is that you won't get one of the strands accidentally shorting out a neighboring input. It will also make a better electrical connection with the screw in the terminal block.

    If you have to extend the wires on your float switches or whatever inputs you're using, then do yourself a favor and use two different color wires - say red and black. Once you have a bundle of 12 wires coming in, you'll have a much easier time sorting them out when half of them can easily be identified for being wired together. If you do extend the wires, my favorite way is to solder them together and then use some heatshrink tubing to cover over the solder joint. The heatshrink tubing will keep the moisture and salt out and prevent corrosion. Some heatshrink tubing is waterproof, but if at all possible avoid submerging your homemade connections. Home Depot/Lowes sell the stuff.

    Now is also a good time to use a label maker and put a label on each of the input wires. If you ever have to replace your BoB, or otherwise services the inputs it is nice to know which is which afterwards.

    If you don't use all the inputs then consider shorting one of them out. I don't know who first came up with this idea (I first saw it somewhere on this forum) but its a great idea. Basically the idea behind shorting one of the inputs out is so that you can alarm on the condition that your BoB becomes accidentally disconnected. Set an alarm condition of that shorted input ever goes to "OPEN".

    Lastly I like to assign each input to a Virtual Outlet. You get to use longer names for Outlets than you do inputs so that you can be more descriptive. Second, I like to name each input and configure it so that they are all "Off" in their normal state and "On" when they are triggering. Depending on the application too, you might consider added a short "Defer" statement. For example if you have a Normally Open float switch, and you have your virtual Outlet turn to "ON" when the float closes then do a "Defer 000:15 Then On" to delay the action to turn on by 15 seconds. This can be useful for countering borderline conditions where the switch opens/closes repeatedly which might cause issues elsewhere with pumps etc.

    inputs.jpg

    By doing this, it becomes very natural and easy to sweep visually through Fusion to see if anything is abnormal. If anything is "On" it stands right out.

    Anyway - I hope this is useful to others!

  2. #2
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    Great writeup! I am definitely going to use some of your suggestions on my upgrade.

    In your the box is labeled "BoB 1", do you have multiple bobs hooked up to your apex?

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    I have two. One connected to the base unit and one connected to my PM2. I needed two more sources for my setup.

  4. #4
    Frequent Contributor iamchadster's Avatar
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    What is the function of switch 6? Is that just to assure that the bob itself didn't fail?
    Chad

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamchadster View Post
    What is the function of switch 6? Is that just to assure that the bob itself didn't fail?
    Essentially yes. The idea is that if the BoB's cable gets bumped during maintenance then you might not notice. I have code in my email alarm that will send an alarm if this switch ever goes to open.

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    Fish Whisperer cypherljk's Avatar
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    Good stuff....

  7. #7
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damonbrodie View Post
    If you don't use all the inputs then consider shorting one of them out. I don't know who first came up with this idea (I first saw it somewhere on this forum) but its a great idea. Basically the idea behind shorting one of the inputs out is so that you can alarm on the condition that your BoB becomes accidentally disconnected. Set an alarm condition of that shorted input ever goes to "OPEN".
    What you probably saw was a link to a post I made on RC years ago. For the convenience of anyone reading this, here's a slightly modified copy of that original post:




    It's been discussed here many times why the proper orientation of a float switch (normally open or normally closed) for a given use is critical. The Comprehensive Preference Manual says it quite well:

    The most common usage of switches is for floats. Floats are referred to as being "normally open‟ (NO) or
    "normally closed‟ (NC). This is a direct result of the orientation of the float to the internal switch contacts. A
    normally open float means the contacts are open and when the float moves up or down, the contacts close. The
    reverse is true with normally closed floats. It is this OPEN or CLOSED that you use in programming for a
    switch. Some floats are reversible. They come in a particular orientation, like normally open but by removing a
    clip and reversing the float position it becomes normally closed. Other floats you have to purchase in the proper
    orientation and cannot change.

    The reason the orientation is important is for failures. If/when a float switch fails, more likely than not it will fail in
    the open (float sticks, wire breaks, contacts don't close, etc). In addition, when you disconnect the BB
    from the Apex base module, all switches go to their OPEN state
    . So keep this in mind when you layout your
    floats. You want the OPEN condition to trigger stopping something, like a pump. You don't want OPEN
    to trigger a pump starting or you will have a nasty surprise some day.

    That phrase in boldface red is the actual subject of this post.

    If you've followed the guidelines above, you may not know (at least immediately) that most or all actions which depend on switch state will not be happening if the breakout box got disconnected. So, how can you tell if the breakout box gets inadvertently unplugged, such as while doing maintenance or installing the latest cool Apex gizmo?

    Easy... use an available switch input and a virtual outlet.

    [BoBUnplugged]
    Set OFF
    If Sw6 OPEN Then ON

    Optionally, rename the switch input to BoBchk or BoBtst or similar.

    [BoBUnplugged]
    Set OFF
    If BoBchk OPEN Then ON

    Then, add this into the Email Alarm outlet program (and audible alarm outlets too if desired) :

    If Outlet BoBUnplugged = ON Then ON

    In order for this concept to work, the switch input must be constantly CLOSED by installing a shorting jumper between the selected switch terminal and the ground terminal of the breakout box. I picked Switch Input 6, because it was available, and because it just so happened that a standard staple conveniently works perfectly as a jumper between the I6 and GRD terminals.
    But you could just use a short piece of wire.

    Now, if the BoB get disconnected, the Apex will see the switch state as OPEN, and you will get an alarm.


    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    can you give me an idea of what the programing looks like for the virtual outlet. i added a virtual eb8 and renamed the outlets to match my switches. I'm not sure how to program them after this. for example i have a door switch that shows closed when the door is open, how would i program this with a virtual outlet to show on instead of open and off instead of closed.

  9. #9
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    Breakout box best practices

    Jtaylor, please do not quote large posts in their entirety. If you must quote, be selective about it - edit the quoted text, leaving only the pertinent part you are asking about or commenting about.

    To answer your question, in a nutshell, you need two lines - a Set statement and an If Switch statement.

    How you program the VO depends on your needs and desires, plus how you have the switch oriented. Examples:

    Set OFF
    If Sw1 OPEN Then ON


    Set OFF
    If Sw1 CLOSED then ON
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  10. #10
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    got it on the quote, I'm new! lol

    now that i have the switch "tied" to the virtual outlet how do i make it control a real outlet. do i simply leave the programing as is for the other outlets?....... I think i just answered my own question... please confirm. also will this help with the problem concerning a disconnected bob leaving all outlets activated by an OPEN in the ON state?

  11. #11
    Master Control Freak aquamanic's Avatar
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    Yes - programming for a VO is identical to a physical outlet. About the only difference is the FALLBACK statement doesn't apply to VO's that you create (it does apply to system generated VO's like when you connect a Vortech pump).
    Al

    I do not work for Neptune. Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums!
    For Neptune support send an email (don't call) to: [email protected] .
    Manuals for all products including the
    Comprehensive Reference Manual can be found here.

  12. #12
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    ok so now i have a virtual outlet that shows on or off based on open or closed, my other outlets are controlled by the switch itself, do i need to tie those physical outlets to the virtual outlet, is there any reason too?

  13. #13
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Breakout box best practices

    The whole trick of using a VO to match the state of a switch arose because in earlier versions of the Apex firmware, switch inputs could not be given custom names. You can now rename switch inputs. So if that's your goal, it's not necessary.

    Why are you associating a VO with each switch - what is your intent? That's what will drive the programming and how you use the switch name directly if when you'd use a VO. Bottom line is if there is not a specific reason, don't do it.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  14. #14
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    Russ I like the idea of having all the switches oriented in the same fashion i.e. On/off vs open/closed because not all my switches are the same normal state and or reversible. Also I would like to have all the switched operate on a closed or ON command to avoid the disconnect and OPEN control issue you describe in the sticky which isn't possible with the switches I have

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    is that possible or practical or am i way off?

  16. #16
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jtaylor1101 View Post
    Also I would like to have all the switched operate on a closed or ON command to avoid the disconnect and OPEN control issue you describe in the sticky which isn't possible with the switches I have
    Using a VO will not help here. It doesn't change how the switch inputs work.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  17. #17
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    great ideas on the bob. i have a question on the bob. what type of float switches do you use and the metal connectors for turning on lights in the sump where can i purchase those? thanks for you help.

  18. #18
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrFishGirl View Post
    what type of float switches do you use
    Most people use small float switches like this:
    MadisonM8000Medium2.jpg
    You can get them from places like Aquahub & autotopoff.com

    the metal connectors for turning on lights in the sump
    I have no idea what you are asking about here...
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  19. #19
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    I think he is asking for something like this, but it is an assumption!!!!



    Google magnetic door/window switches...(they have NO or NC switches)
    Jon

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    Regular Vistor PrFishGirl's Avatar
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    That's exactly what I was
    Talking about.. Thank u

    - - - Updated - - -

    Thanks for the website for the float switches. Appreciate it

  21. #21
    Master Control Freak aquamanic's Avatar
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    You can find those window alarm switches on EBay or if there's a local alarm supply company nearby you can get them there.
    Al

    I do not work for Neptune. Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums!
    For Neptune support send an email (don't call) to: [email protected] .
    Manuals for all products including the
    Comprehensive Reference Manual can be found here.

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    Hi Damonbrodie - I have a question on your post. I just hooked up the BoB for 2 float switches and want to do what you said with "shorting out" one of the switches but not quite sure I understand how to do that completely.
    I have a short jumper wire going from switch 6 to the ground. Switch 6 is in the "Open" position. It's my understanding that if there is a problem with the BoB, all switches will default to "Open". So:
    1. How do you get it to the "Closed" position?
    2. What language did you use in the Email Alarm to send you an alert should this switch change to the open position?
    Thanks

  23. #23
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    Scratch That - By adding that jumper wire (connecting the same wire to the ground and switch 6) I just caused the PM2 to start blinking and the original float switches stopped working. Obviously I completely misunderstood how to do that

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddFeyrer View Post
    Hi Damonbrodie - I have a question on your post. I just hooked up the BoB for 2 float switches and want to do what you said with "shorting out" one of the switches but not quite sure I understand how to do that completely.
    I have a short jumper wire going from switch 6 to the ground. Switch 6 is in the "Open" position. It's my understanding that if there is a problem with the BoB, all switches will default to "Open". So:
    1. How do you get it to the "Closed" position?
    2. What language did you use in the Email Alarm to send you an alert should this switch change to the open position?
    Thanks
    1) The trick is to create a Virtual Outlet.. There are many examples on this forum for this - the code I have for my Virtual Outlet is (it is called BoB1_Unplug)

    If Unplg1 CLOSED Then OFF
    If Unplg1 OPEN Then ON

    (I named the switch Unplg1 in the web interface)

    If Bob1_Unplug every equals ON then It signals an email alarm.

    In the email alarm code I have:

    If Outlet BoB1_Unplug = ON Then ON

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddFeyrer View Post
    Scratch That - By adding that jumper wire (connecting the same wire to the ground and switch 6) I just caused the PM2 to start blinking and the original float switches stopped working. Obviously I completely misunderstood how to do that
    If your PM2 started blinking, you might have accidentally connected between I6 and RSV.

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