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Thread: Neptune Return Pump

  1. #1
    NSI Member jrlamountain's Avatar
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    Neptune Return Pump

    new returned pump just announced :-)


    http://reefbuilders.com/2015/09/04/n...tems-cor-pump/

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    Very cool, but unfortunately too small for me. The Vortech L1 is barely large enough, but if Neptune made something with similar flow rates I'd probably jump on it.

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    Frequent Visitor LobsterOfJustice's Avatar
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    Agreed - I'm excited that this is the direction they are going in, and assuming there is a larger model in the works, I'll be on board.
    180g reef with all the bells and whistles

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    Neptune Return Pump

    I have mixed feelings about Neptune moving into this new hardware arena. On one hand, having an integrated system is very important to me and I can certainly understand that relying on other third party vendors to allow integration is frustrating for both the end users and I'm sure Neptune as a company as well.

    Ecotech and the new vortech pumps are a great example of this. I have three radion lights and two mp10 pumps and I love that they integrate with the apex. I was quite disappointed to see that the new vortech pumps do not integrate and it also makes me a bit worried about future integration support for the products I already have. If Neptune makes the hardware then As a customer I don't have to worry about future support or features not being available when used with the apex.

    On the other hand, Neptune can't make every possible hardware option. Lobster and I both need larger pumps than the new COR pump and there are other third party options that will work. I'd hate to see third party support wither because Neptune is making their own hardware and less interested in pushing other hardware makers to provide support for the apex.

    Additionally, while I love the apex and what it can do, I think there is still a lot of room for improvement as well. The programming language could be greatly expanded with support for boolean evaluations and timers and variables and more, and as above, I'd hate to see development on the core apex product slow because of these new markets that Neptune is entering.

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    NSI Member jrlamountain's Avatar
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    Well said. I like having the ease of use of the neptunes products as in they work well in there own environment. I would also need a larger version of this pump but am excited to try it out. I recently saw that the new waveline pumps are apex ready and I think there large version would work well in my tank. There are a lot of cool ideas to being able to control the return pump such as a tidal tank. With all the new equipment it is only a matter of time till there is a new head unit on the market with newer technology


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  6. #6
    Frequent Visitor LobsterOfJustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrettS View Post
    I have mixed feelings about Neptune moving into this new hardware arena. On one hand, having an integrated system is very important to me and I can certainly understand that relying on other third party vendors to allow integration is frustrating for both the end users and I'm sure Neptune as a company as well.

    Ecotech and the new vortech pumps are a great example of this. I have three radion lights and two mp10 pumps and I love that they integrate with the apex. I was quite disappointed to see that the new vortech pumps do not integrate and it also makes me a bit worried about future integration support for the products I already have. If Neptune makes the hardware then As a customer I don't have to worry about future support or features not being available when used with the apex.

    On the other hand, Neptune can't make every possible hardware option. Lobster and I both need larger pumps than the new COR pump and there are other third party options that will work. I'd hate to see third party support wither because Neptune is making their own hardware and less interested in pushing other hardware makers to provide support for the apex.

    Additionally, while I love the apex and what it can do, I think there is still a lot of room for improvement as well. The programming language could be greatly expanded with support for boolean evaluations and timers and variables and more, and as above, I'd hate to see development on the core apex product slow because of these new markets that Neptune is entering.
    I don't see the Variable Speed Ports going anywhere any time soon. To me, that is the most basic, user friendly, and third-party friendly way to integrate with the apex. Any company that wants to integrate with the apex knows how to do it - see the recent release of the gyre module, and the development of the jebao cable as examples. Apex is offering a return pump and powerhead option, but if those don't fit your needs, you've got other controllable options for both.

    The Ecotech products are a different story. I think a bit of a rift was driven between Ecotech and Neptune with the whole Radion disconnect issue last year. It's clear that both companies are pushing in the direction of independence from each other - the new Ecotech return pump includes features which go beyond the pump and include float switch integration, etc. I think Ecotech's choice to make the L1 unable to be conrolled by the WXM was a huge mistake on their part - especially considering the fact that a few short months later, Neptune announced their own return pump. I can't imagine very many apex users will choose the L1 over the COR. The number one feature people ask for in nearly every piece of high end equipment is Apex integration.
    180g reef with all the bells and whistles

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    Frequent Contributor Alain B's Avatar
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    The only reason i might choose an Ecotech pump is the fact that the Neptune pump is a liitle small for me , i am not even sure the Ecotech can do the job . Hopefully Neptune will get a bigger pump ready for my new built .
    Alain

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    Frequent Visitor bigjim's Avatar
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    I would hate to see Neptune turn into another apple where you have to buy everything from them.

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    NSI Member jrlamountain's Avatar
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    the only good thing about that is like apple all of there equipment works wel with each other and the set up is usually painless. you may pay more but at least you know it should work well together
    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
    I would hate to see Neptune turn into another apple where you have to buy everything from them.

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    Frequent Visitor LobsterOfJustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain B View Post
    The only reason i might choose an Ecotech pump is the fact that the Neptune pump is a liitle small for me , i am not even sure the Ecotech can do the job . Hopefully Neptune will get a bigger pump ready for my new built .
    Thats why I have a Jebao return pump. Large flow rate and controllable with the Apex... win-win.
    180g reef with all the bells and whistles

  11. #11
    Frequent Visitor Torx's Avatar
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    hummina hummina hummina.

    I agree though, a little under powered for me as a sole. I run around 3100gph to power my 120 and some reactors with a second tank. This is a great start and would love to hop on board with a beta. I would just use a separate pump for my reactors, which I should be doing anyways so that I do not have to shut down my system 100%

    Current: 120 Gallon Peninsula DIY system.

  12. #12
    NSI Member iamchadster's Avatar
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    Very cool! Time to swap out my little Rio...
    Chad

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    Outstanding.... My eheim is not 5 years old and I was debating getting a backup. I Was looking for something closer to 1000 gph. Plus that third port on my 1link is staring at me... Sign me up to test this bugger...

  14. #14
    Frequent Visitor joenla's Avatar
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    I have a syncra silent 10 pump feeding my chiller. line from pump to chiller and then return lines in the tank are a total of 8ft horizontal and 5ft vertical. based of loss of head due to length and it feeding the chiller I'm literally getting about 500 GPH which is barely enough for my JBJ 1/3HP chiller. I cant go external bc it would require a LOT of work to make room for the pump (not to mention drilling the sump) . The new Vectra L1 looks like a heck of a pump. unfortunately its a couple weeks before being released but I'm trying to hold out. I guess my question is, after seeing the post I thought I'd ask, does anyone know of a pump (doesn't have to be variable speed pump) that's as good as the Vectra L1? I need something large, energy efficient and plenty of power. The Vectra L1 3100 GPH at 130 watts and max head of 21.5 ft which is outstanding and appears hard to beat but again thought I'd check. thanks, Joe

  15. #15
    Frequent Visitor LobsterOfJustice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joenla View Post
    I have a syncra silent 10 pump feeding my chiller. line from pump to chiller and then return lines in the tank are a total of 8ft horizontal and 5ft vertical. based of loss of head due to length and it feeding the chiller I'm literally getting about 500 GPH which is barely enough for my JBJ 1/3HP chiller. I cant go external bc it would require a LOT of work to make room for the pump (not to mention drilling the sump) . The new Vectra L1 looks like a heck of a pump. unfortunately its a couple weeks before being released but I'm trying to hold out. I guess my question is, after seeing the post I thought I'd ask, does anyone know of a pump (doesn't have to be variable speed pump) that's as good as the Vectra L1? I need something large, energy efficient and plenty of power. The Vectra L1 3100 GPH at 130 watts and max head of 21.5 ft which is outstanding and appears hard to beat but again thought I'd check. thanks, Joe
    Waveline DC12000, Jebao DCT12000 or DCT15000. Both of these are able to be controlled via apex, which the Vectra is not.

    I use a Jebao now, depending on what features Neptune has up their sleeve, might be worth using multiple COR in place of one larger pump. I would also assume that eventually they would have multiple sizes of the COR available.
    180g reef with all the bells and whistles

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    I might be wrong about this so feel free to correct me. The 1link is supplied with a 100w power adapter, the WAVs run ~35w and the COR at 60w. Does that mean a lager pump would be limited by the 1link?

    here is a photo from the apex meeting at macna. Not mine got it off a reeef2reef thread
    3f4c6a7843b8a5591ccf354cb741fe4c.jpg

  17. #17
    Apex Guru zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattD View Post
    I might be wrong about this so feel free to correct me. The 1link is supplied with a 100w power adapter, the WAVs run ~35w and the COR at 60w. Does that mean a lager pump would be limited by the 1link?

    here is a photo from the apex meeting at macna. Not mine got it off a reeef2reef thread
    3f4c6a7843b8a5591ccf354cb741fe4c.jpg
    This is actually a very good point. I assume that the one link can handle more than 100 W, but the power supply would not be able to.

    Terrence, I would have your engineering team look into this since 2 WAV and 1 COR will be a very popular combo. If the one link is capable, you may want to provide a 180 W power supply so that even the worst case load of 3 COR would not damage a power supply.

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    Hmm, that is an interesting point. And if 100W is the max, it might be bad news for those of us hoping for a bigger pump. Most of the ones I'd consider are in the 130W range. And the huge red dragon one is like 230W

  19. #19
    Frequent Contributor Alain B's Avatar
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    Even two COR would not work on a single ILink .
    Alain

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    NSI Member jrlamountain's Avatar
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    maybe we just have to get a bigger power supply?

  21. #21
    VP Sales and Marketing Terence's Avatar
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    Let me try to address a few things in this thread to fill you guys in.

    First off, when it comes to integrating with other products, it is absolutely our intention to do as much as we possibly can to make that happen. Unfortunately we cannot force other companies to come on board. Some simply make the strategic decision that it is not worth it, there is not enough resources in their company to do it, or they simply do not understand. Often I will approach a company and ask them "why don't you make that Apex Ready" and send them the info. That is about as far as I can take it. Our standards now for integration are basically 0-10V and RS232 (VDM). The ETM and AI stuff was all custom work. Each of those were a one-off, only done due to the sheer size of the market, and the engineering pay back was via a hardware option. Now with that being said...

    As we push toward and into 2016 we realize that a new standard is necessary. I spoke about it at MACNA. I am calling it IoA or Internet of Aquariums. Basically it is a communication protocol that we will give to manufacturers that has categories of products in it that can be controlled over Ethernet. We will begin with lighting of course but it should branch out from there depending on demand and need from the larger manufacturers. Now, for instance, if you are a lighting company with a wirelessly controlled light and native app, you can implement our standard into the light and the Apex and Apex Fusion interface will recognize it and control it. Now, the key here is that these companies have to be pushed (by you, not us) to do their part. Just like they are now on the current standards of 0-10v, etc. So, this is just one more way we are moving to expand the capabilities of the hardware you already own. No additional hardware would be required for this.

    Now, the COR. The COR is designed to fit the needs of a very wide group of aquarists' needs. But, some like myself would not be able to take advantage of it for my main return because of my large tank size. I can't say if or when we might have a larger pump in the works, but for now, I will be using the COR to drive my reactor manifold.

    The Apple comparison. Glad you brought that up. There were two Apples when it came to integration with 3rd party products. In the 90s if you wanted your Mac to have a mouse, it had to come from Apple. Fast forward 10 years and they allowed interconnection to many other products - you could use a Logitech mouse. Now, would Apple have an advantage to creating a more integrated mouse for your computer than Logitech, Absolutely. Could they offer more to the consumer than Logitech - probably and likely. But ultimately there was still an integration possibility to a wide variety of products. If we wanted to stymie the growth of compatible products, why would we be continually adding powerheads and return pumps to the Apex Ready line up over the last few months?

    Finally on the Vectra integration to WXM. First of all there is no technical (hardware) reason our Apex with the WXM could not operate the Vectra. We are ready to make that happen ASAP. The ball is completely in ETM court at this point. We have been talking to them at MACNA and we will let you all know more when we do.
    Terence Fugazzi :: VP Sales and Marketing :: Neptune Systems

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    Very well said, Terence, and also rather reassuring to me as a customer. It is good to see that you are still pushing toward integration, and as I said above, it is most definitely dependent on the hardware manufacturers. I am aware that there is only so much Neptune can do on this front and it's good to hear that you're still pushing as much as you guys can. I can certainly imagine it must be frustrating when your requests fall on deaf ears, and it does make sense that they will listen to us more than you. Perhaps I need to make some calls or send some emails to do my part.

    I do like the AI and ETM hardware integration options as I believe you can get much more control than you could with simple 0-10V control, but honestly, I suspect that you're right that things are going to be moving to Ethernet/Internet control. I am definitely excited to hear that this is coming and I would certainly encourage you to make the protocol as open and expandable as possible as it's likely that 5 or years down the road we may be integrating things we never dreamed of integrating. Maybe even devices that don't even exist yet. The ability to keep that protocol easily expandable to support new devices will help keep you guys in the forefront.

    Finally, as I mentioned above, I'd love to see the apex language become much more powerful. The ability to add timers and variables and boolean expressions would make the apex immensely more powerful at what it does.

    Thanks again for the message and it's very encouraging to see this innovation happening.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terence View Post

    As we push toward and into 2016 we realize that a new standard is necessary. I spoke about it at MACNA. I am calling it IoA or Internet of Aquariums. Basically it is a communication protocol that we will give to manufacturers that has categories of products in it that can be controlled over Ethernet. We will begin with lighting of course but it should branch out from there depending on demand and need from the larger manufacturers. Now, for instance, if you are a lighting company with a wirelessly controlled light and native app, you can implement our standard into the light and the Apex and Apex Fusion interface will recognize it and control it. Now, the key here is that these companies have to be pushed (by you, not us) to do their part. Just like they are now on the current standards of 0-10v, etc. So, this is just one more way we are moving to expand the capabilities of the hardware you already own. No additional hardware would be required for this.
    It's definitely time for this. You should just publish it on your web site.

  24. #24
    NSI Member jrlamountain's Avatar
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    Well said Terence


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  25. #25
    Frequent Visitor LobsterOfJustice's Avatar
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    Thanks for your post Terrance. As far as the Apple comparison and the direction Neptune is going, think about this... within less then a month an apex ready adaptor for the waveline was released, and Neptune also announced their own controllable return pump. About the same time that the WAV became available, and apex ready controller for the gyre became available. So it's pretty clear that Neptune is supporting both third-party integration as well as developing their own version of products.

    Regarding the COR sizing limitation, would swapping out the power supply with something larger not be an option?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrettS View Post
    Finally, as I mentioned above, I'd love to see the apex language become much more powerful. The ability to add timers and variables and boolean expressions would make the apex immensely more powerful at what it does.
    I think it seems like Neptune is actually moving away from the programming language entirely, with the use of graph programming and wizards that you see in Fusion. I'm sure the current programming will hang around at least for a little while, for those of us who want to take the time to learn it and implement advanced functions. But I doubt they are going to spend any time expanding it at this point.
    180g reef with all the bells and whistles

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