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Thread: Neptune Return Pump

  1. #101
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    Here's an idea. The next time Neptune wants to release a new product at MACNA, have the product just about ready to ship like every other company. Make the announcement and say "it will be shipping next month". Or just don't make the announcement at all. This is getting a little ridiculous. I was honestly going to hold out until this pump came out but I decided to just buy the Ecotech L1. There is no end in sight or hint of when it will be released so I needed to move forward. This Neptune system is great except that nothing you buy is compatible with it. We can control Ecotech MP's but not the Vectra? What the heck. If they came out with their own pumps, lights, etc, I would buy it.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pola0502ds View Post
    This Neptune system is great except that nothing you buy is compatible with it. We can control Ecotech MP's but not the Vectra? What the heck. If they came out with their own pumps, lights, etc, I would buy it.
    I don't think I'd say that "nothing is compatible with it". It has more third party device support than any other controller out there. And the lack of support for the Vectra is entirely in ETM's hands. Unlike the Vortech products, they chose to only support it with their own EcoSmart product.

  3. #103
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    You're right, I shouldn't have said that. However, it just seems like whatever I want to purchase for my tank it's not compatible with my apex. Whether it be because of budget, the right tool for the right application, or whatever it may be. When I purchased the apex my goal was to have everything controlled by apex and it's just not happening.

  4. #104
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    This is post has 2 sections. The first is addressed to the OP and all of our fellow forum members. The second is addressed to Neptune Systems. I hope our forum members will benefit from thinking through and answering these questions and hopefully from Neptune Systems' responses.

    For forum members:
    Who, to your understanding, is the responsible party for a device from Company X not being made compatible with my Apex monitoring and control system? Company X or Neptune?

    Which monitoring and control systems out there can I buy that can control several brands of devices made by companies other than their own manufacturer?

    Which monitoring and control systems can I buy that will provide me the ability to program my own logic to use information from multiple sensors and sensor types to govern when to cause a control action for any device in my system, even if the control is only to turn it ON|OFF?

    Which monitoring and control system can I buy that will do all the above? How many such systems are there?

    For Neptune Systems: Please help us understand...

    Who was the responsible party in each case where a device produced by a Company X has been made APEX Ready so I can buy it, plug it into my Apex system and use it without any DIY work on my part? In these cases did Neptune Systems have to make it happen or did Company X?

    Who owns the design authority required to interface Company X's device to Neptune Systems' device? Neptune Systems owns the design authority for the Apex side of the interface and Company X owns the authority for its device's side. Neptune Systems avails its interface information to Company X. Is that information proprietary? Does it require a contractual agreement with Neptune Systems for me to obtain it and use it?

    If Company X elects to interface its device to Apex then we users get another Apex Ready device to satisfy our endless lust for yet another doodad to play with in our Apex controlled aquarium systems.

    On the otherhand, if Company X elects not to develop the interface, can Neptune opt to do it on its own without cooperation from Company X? Certainly if the information required to develop the interface is proprietary to Company X, then Neptune Systems can only get that information legally from Company X under a contractual arrangement, which is not Controlled by Neptune Systems.

    Is the current blockage, causing other companies' devices from being interfaced, occurring because of proprietary restrictions precluding Neptune Systems from acting on its own? Or could Neptune Systems develop a fully featured interface on its own without requiring access to proprietary information and consent from Company X?

    Is the decision whether or not to integrate a device to Apex a Neptune Systems' decision or a Company X decision? If it is a Neptune Systems' decision is it a marketing business decision?

    Do fully featured interfaces require any modifications to a device being made Apex Ready? Any such mods would have to be performed by or authorized by the Company X that produces the device right?

  5. #105
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    I would think it requires cooperation between both companies. However it is up to Neptune to provide the encentive for the other company to want to do it or pay them to do it.

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
    I would think it requires cooperation between both companies. However it is up to Neptune to provide the encentive for the other company to want to do it or pay them to do it.
    I would think there would be incentive from both sides. Neptune wants as many things to be compatible with the Apex as possible obviously, but for 3rd party manufacturers having their product be "Apex ready" certainly isn't something to be overlooked since the Apex is (I assume?) the controller with the largest part of the market.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by fab View Post
    This is post has 2 sections. The first is addressed to the OP and all of our fellow forum members. The second is addressed to Neptune Systems. I hope our forum members will benefit from thinking through and answering these questions and hopefully from Neptune Systems' responses.
    This is a very fair and well written post and I will try and do my part clarify things for you as well as the community as best I can. That said, I will say up front that I do not intend for my involvement here on these topics to become a back and forth interrogatory. I always try to be as open as I can with all of you in the community, but there are too many speed bumps here and I really want to focus my efforts on getting you guys the next great thing out our doors!

    Quote Originally Posted by fab View Post

    For Neptune Systems: Please help us understand...

    Who was the responsible party in each case where a device produced by a Company X has been made APEX Ready so I can buy it, plug it into my Apex system and use it without any DIY work on my part? In these cases did Neptune Systems have to make it happen or did Company X?
    We have a set of standards by which a company can make their product interact with the Apex. They generally fall into two categories: a. via our 0-10v interface or b. via our serial interface on the VDM Module. In addition to that, we require that the company seeking Apex Ready make available (for free or for a price) the necessary hardware so the connection is effectively plug and play from the consumer side. Any company can apply for Apex Ready by simply filling out a form and submitting it with their product for evaluation by our team. We then evaluate that product and examine if, in our opinion, it would work in the way our customer base would expect it to. We have a wide amount of latitude here. Everything from how much variability a light may have on the 0-10v channel to the build quality, safety, and other factors go into whether or not we want to put our stamp of authority on the product and have our brand associated with it. Also it should be noted that we do not give Apex Ready status to a company. Each product must be reviewed on its own merits.

    Quote Originally Posted by fab View Post

    If Company X elects to interface its device to Apex then we users get another Apex Ready device to satisfy our endless lust for yet another doodad to play with in our Apex controlled aquarium systems.

    On the otherhand, if Company X elects not to develop the interface, can Neptune opt to do it on its own without cooperation from Company X? Certainly if the information required to develop the interface is proprietary to Company X, then Neptune Systems can only get that information legally from Company X under a contractual arrangement, which is not Controlled by Neptune Systems.
    In addition to the standard avenue of Apex Ready outlined above, there are instances where we will work in a more integrated manner with a company to come up with a solution for our customers. Examples of this would be the AWM and WXM products. In those cases we have unique contractual agreements. Additionally, the tables are turned the other way in a sense. We are given a set of commands or methods to control those devices and we build our hardware and software accordingly. Obviously we cannot build for things that have not yet been invented on those devices/interfaces. This requires the other company to give us another "command" so to speak to enable the Apex to take advantage of that functionality. A perfect example is that the early control of the Radion LED did not have the capability to do lightning or clouds. Those functions had to be given to us to implement.


    Quote Originally Posted by fab View Post
    Is the current blockage, causing other companies' devices from being interfaced, occurring because of proprietary restrictions precluding Neptune Systems from acting on its own? Or could Neptune Systems develop a fully featured interface on its own without requiring access to proprietary information and consent from Company X?
    The shortest answer is, it depends. For products where we do not have contractual agreements or those agreements do not preclude us from "going it on our own" there could be cases where the market demand were such that we might take on such a project.


    Quote Originally Posted by fab View Post
    Is the decision whether or not to integrate a device to Apex a Neptune Systems' decision or a Company X decision? If it is a Neptune Systems' decision is it a marketing business decision?
    It can be all of the above. I have illustrated above how we make the decision and how Company X could be making the decision. There are times when it can absolutely be a marketing decision. An example for that would be if Digital Aquatics came to us and asked to make their dosing module or a new power bar Apex Ready. I know that is an extreme and unlikely example, but I am trying to illustrate the point. All of that said, and I have said this many times, we have an open-system strategy for the Apex and peripherals that connect to it. That extends to products that are or might be future competitive products. Just as my Macbook Pro will work with a Logitech mouse or an Apple Trackpad so will the Apex work with either the WAV or the VorTech or the COR and the Red Dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by fab View Post
    Do fully featured interfaces require any modifications to a device being made Apex Ready? Any such mods would have to be performed by or authorized by the Company X that produces the device right?
    As I said above there are, and there will likely be more at some point, custom interfaces for third party integration with the Apex. In most cases it starts with the other company if a new feature (or a new product with the same interface design) will be transferred over to the Apex control. In other words, the decision to build a bridge has to occur, and half the bridge has to be built, before we can connect it to our shore.

    Again I hope I have provided some insight for you and the community. I think I understand what is likely behind your questions. I can assure you that it is my goal (and an official company direction) to always have the Apex interface with as many products as possible. It is for that very reason that we are currently developing an open specification for the Apex for control over Ethernet/Internet called "Internet of Aquariums" whereby Apex Ready gets taken to the next level and many of the newest wi-fi controlled aquarium products can have their controls integrated into the Apex if those companies so choose.

  8. #108
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    Hi Terence,

    What is the physical size of the pump. The reason I ask is I'm going to purchase a Synegy Reef Systems CL-22 sump. The compartment for the return pump is 4 inches wide. I know that the Vextra, and Waveline will fit. I'm in the process of buying equipment for my 100 glass tank, and I'm in no particular hurry for it. I know what it's like to do product development. I'm a mechanical engineer and I work in medical device.

    If it's 4 inches or more then I'll look at getting a vectra instead, but I really want the COR. If it does fit, I may just get the Vectra for now then pick up the COR when it comes out and keep the Vectra as a spare. Stop coming out with all these modules! I'm a gadget person. WXM, PMK, LSM, PM2, and soon to get FMM, WAV, maybe additional 1Link. My bank account hates me right now. Keep up the good work. You make awesome stuff! Looking forward to MACNA end of this year.

    Efrain

  9. #109
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    when.... quand....cuando

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by jepp View Post
    when.... quand....cuando
    You know that they are not going to commit to a release date right now, so its of no use in asking. I think that they will probably announce something during MACNA 2016. I wouldn't be surprised if they're shooting for a fourth quarter release or first quarter of next year, but that's pure speculation on my part.

  11. #111
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    I would like to know the physical dimensions of the pump. I have a 4.75" wide space inside my new Synergy Reef sump that is being made. I just want to know if it will fit in that space. Otherwise I'll have to look at other DC pumps. Cor is what I really want.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddyboy View Post
    I would like to know the physical dimensions of the pump. I have a 4.75" wide space inside my new Synergy Reef sump that is being made. I just want to know if it will fit in that space. Otherwise I'll have to look at other DC pumps. Cor is what I really want.
    You do realize it will be months before it's released due to it being "pushed back" thanks to the new Apex coming out

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by marksw View Post
    You do realize it will be months before it's released due to it being "pushed back" thanks to the new Apex coming out
    I won't be ready for some time. Most likely the end of the year. There are other temporary DC pump alternatives that I can use as a placeholder. They probably won't make a announcement about it and the FMM until MACNA in September anyway. The tooling for the pump is pretty much done at this stage. That's if they didn't use a existing design from another pump. Even if they designed the housing themselves it's late in the game for large changes in the design. I wanted to know what the physical dimensions of the pump are.

    When everything is said and done, I'll have spent a ton of money on this stupid 100 gallon Visio tank that I bought off of a guy for $50! Lol

    Are you going to MACNA?

  14. #114
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    So, I will see how the response is here; I am in dire need of purchasing a new return pump. Luckily the Cor should be sufficient for me......till I upgrade again. At any rate, has anybody heard any news on either the release of the Cor (I heard 2nd or 3rd quarter of this year.....) or any movement on the Vectra integration? Any news would be greatly appreciated!

  15. #115
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    You should talk to ETM about the Vectra. It's there pump and if they want it to be apex ready, they have to allow Neptune access to the pumps driver. Don't hold your breath waiting for the COR (I want one too!). If you need a new pump now buy Jebao to get by until it's released. I think we'll probably hear something about the COR at MACNA this year.

  16. #116
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    I agree, pick up something cheap that you can use later as a spare pump. Then get the COR when it is released by Neptune Systems. It's really not that big a deal.

  17. #117
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    You wont get much help here, if you read the thread you can see we have all been asking for some time.

    I wish they could just give us some insight on when new produce might be released and if they have to back it up then so be it. It would help so much for people building tanks or people in need of equipment in general.

    I was building a tank and wanted it to be as much apex equipment as possible, it makes sense. Heard the cor was coming out so i waited and waited and finally had to settle for the ecotech. Now that they released the new apex they said there would be new accessories as well such as a ATO pump. I just happened to be in need of a complete ATO setup and would absolutely LOVE to have my apex take care of it and use their pump. If i knew when it MIGHT be released i would def hold off and wait for it.

    In my opinion i dont think company should announce new products until they know of a release date. It has to be a headache for them, reading all these posts and being bugged by everyone. When apple announces a new phone, it ships within weeks of announcement, always. Thats exactly what i would do.

    However, neptune is a amazing company with great people in the office and great products. They have us wrapped around their finger because of it and once the cor is released im sure eBay will be flooded with people trying to sell their used ecotech pumps or whatever they have so they can get the core. Im sure i will be one of those.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pola0502ds View Post
    Y
    However, neptune is a amazing company with great people in the office and great products.
    I sure hope the COR is up to the highest standards and its pumping performance is outstanding. If not, I am afraid the company's reputation will take a hit this time. There has been so much angst generated on forums that people are expecting more than had Neptune Systems waited longer to announce the new pump. That said, they have come through for us, so far, with high quality products. I hope this is a repeat of that.

  19. #119
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    Neptune Return Pump

    Couldn't wait anymore! Pulled the trigger on a pair of L1's! Sorry Neptune


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  20. #120
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    If someone like Icecap (hint) releases a neptune interface module for the M1 and l1 pumps like they did for the Gyre I think Neptune will be in a world of hurt


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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumaurier7 View Post
    If someone like Icecap (hint) releases a neptune interface module for the M1 and l1 pumps like they did for the Gyre I think Neptune will be in a world of hurt


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    Ironic that you would post that as I was just doing some research on those pumps. They aren't getting very good reviews from what I could see. I own Vortechs and Radions so I have no beef really against Ecotech except the whole non-apex compatible thing. Based on what I have read, the fittings, the heat given off by those pumps etc., and of course the lack of apex compatibility are why I am still holding out for the Cor.
    Chad

  22. #122
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    Neptune Return Pump

    My pumps are mounted outside my sump so the heat isn't an issue , but more importantly the flow from them is monstrous ! An apex module is another way for someone to advance the hobby and make some cash whilst doing so , I'm sure someone will seize the opportunity soon!


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    Quote Originally Posted by iamchadster View Post
    Ironic that you would post that as I was just doing some research on those pumps. They aren't getting very good reviews from what I could see. I own Vortechs and Radions so I have no beef really against Ecotech except the whole non-apex compatible thing. Based on what I have read, the fittings, the heat given off by those pumps etc., and of course the lack of apex compatibility are why I am still holding out for the Cor.
    My pumps are mounted outside my sump so the heat isn't an issue , but more importantly the flow from them is monstrous ! An apex module is another way for someone to advance the hobby and make some cash whilst doing so , I'm sure someone will seize the opportunity soon!


    I would also like to add that my decision was based on a couple criteria ,

    1. I run two pumps for redundancy so a single must be able to keep things goin if necessary.
    2. A Battery Back up is available (and purchased) for them.
    3. Although heat and noise may be an issue for others , neither will affect me since as I stated they will be outside the sump and noisewise they are a great improvement to what I use now.
    4. I am a firm believer in COMPROMISE ! , there is no such thing as a "free lunch" ! there must be a price for the flow produced by these especially in such a small package.
    5. Considering the advertised flow of the COR I would have to get 3 (or 4) of them to accomplish the same thing ie general flow for my 320gallon (320x10 = 3200 gal minimum.) plus feeding my reactor manifold and soon to be installed algae sctubber/s with enough capacity for any future doo dadds .

    Cheers!

  24. #124
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    OK so we have the COR 15 and COR 20. 15 is 1500 gph at 0 head pressure. Uses 1link for power and control. The 20 is 2,000 gph and has a powerbrick allowing it to be standalone without the need for an apex.

    Is there any other new info? Pricing on either unit, when is the timeframe for release? What features can be done using Fusion, are there ways it can be used with the FMM? Can it be calibrated like the Vectra and locked to a maximum flow rate based on your plumbing and overflow?

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    Any Links to this?

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