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Thread: 12v backup for WAV

  1. #1
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    12v backup for WAV

    Do the wav pumps have an option to power them via 12v in the event of power loss? I did not see anything on the Neptune site about it but thought it may not be listed as a feature thus the question.

    Thanks
    Brad

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    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    There is not. However, you can use a standard UPS to power the 1LINK power supply. There's a huge benefit to this method - the 1LINK also supplies Aquabus power to the whole system just like an EnergyBar does. So you can easily provide backup power the the WAVs and the Apex itself with one UPS.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    There is not. However, you can use a standard UPS to power the 1LINK power supply. There's a huge benefit to this method - the 1LINK also supplies Aqua power to the whole system just like an EnergyBar does. So you can easily provide backup power the the WAVs and the Apex itself with one UPS.

    Russ,

    For those of us that have a UPS & the 12v aux port plugged into the base unit for power detection and now have the WAV that is plugged into the 1Link that is also supplying power to the Apex base unit should we remove the 12v aux port or is it ok to have both power sources on the Apex unit?
    Jon

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    Don't see anything wrong with it. It's a level of redundancy I'd like to keep since I have both. But if I didn't have the 12v adapter already I probably wouldn't do it.
    Regards
    Michael

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    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    This question warrants a more detailed response than I can do on my phone while attending MACNA . Bear with me - I'll catch up on forum stuff as soon as I can.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    This question warrants a more detailed response than I can do on my phone while attending MACNA . Bear with me - I'll catch up on forum stuff as soon as I can.
    lol...Russ....Please just wait until later to address this question as I am SURE your not BUSY as ALL......hahahahahaha
    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonmos75 View Post
    lol...Russ....Please just wait until later to address this question as I am SURE your not BUSY as ALL......hahahahahaha
    I practically had to tackle him at a full sprint just to shake his hand and say thanks for all he does for us.


    Not a Dalek

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    Thanks Russ for the quick reply. While it agree a UPS could be used a 12v connection would be best for me. I was hoping that the WAV had a 12v connection that would function like the Tunze safety connector to power the powerheads from a 12v battery. In my current setup with the Tunze I have a high amp hour capacity 12v battery that will power the Apex controller through the 12v port and 2 6105 Tunze powerheads for 3-4 days. The Apex controller can sense the power outage and will throttle the powerheads back to 50% to slow the power draw. In this setup I can circulate water in the tank much longer than a UPS would last. I do have a generator for a long term power outage but need to be home to connect it up. I travel so the current setup will keep the tank going long enough for me to get home if needed.

    THanks
    Brad

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    Would be nice if they did have accept 12v input for battery backup. The Apex can sense the power outage and throttle them back so that the reserve power will last longer yet still keep water moving for oxygen exchange.

  10. #10
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    The first thing I'd like to point out is that the WAVs operate on 24VDC, not 12v.

    Regarding a dedicated battery backup unit like the Vortech batttery backup - such a specialized device is a low-volume niche product in a relatively small market and comes at a correspondingly relatively high price tag. Standard Uninterruptible Power Supplies on the other hand are produced at much higher volume for a wide variety of markets - you have more options for form factor and capacity (load and runtime) - you can get some pretty decent UPSs for the cost of a specialized/dedicated unit. I firmly believe that a UPS is not only much more flexible because you can use it to power the Apex (so it remains powered up and can trigger email alerts about a loss of primary power) and other equipment as desired, but also represents a better value.

    I see two common scenarios using an Apex and a UPS to provide backup power to the WAVs.

    1. Apex, Apex Lite, or Apex Jr, at least one EnergyBar, 1LINK, and WAV(s), but no 12v Aux power supply to the Apex and with the Power Monitor feature disabled. Connect only the 1LINK PS to the UPS. The UPS will provide uninterrupted power to the Apex base unit via AquaBus. Use an EB as the power sensor to detect if mains power is lost. Define a profile for the WAV(s) to use if mains power is out. I'll call it WAV_on_UPS - I would use Constant at a lower intensity or Pulse at about half the intensity that you'd normally use.

    In the WAV program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then WAV_on_UPS
    In the email program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then ON


    2. Apex or Apex Lite (not Jr), 12v aux adapter connected to the Apex/Apex Lite, Power Monitor feature enabled. Connect 1LINK PS to the UPS. The Apex aux power input is used as the loss-of-power sensor in this scenario. Define a WAV profile as described above.

    In the WAV program: If Power Apex OFF 001 Then WAV_on_UPS
    In the email program: If Power Apex OFF 001 Then ON

    There are several other, more advanced (and complicated) scenarios for those who have multiple EBs or who want to power other devices besides WAVs during a power outage, but that is beyond the scope of this. The two scenarios outlined here should be ample for most people who want to simply provide backup power to the Apex and WAV(s).
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  11. #11
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    12v backup for WAV

    Just to add to the above...

    I think many Apex Jr owners have added a EB, but for those who do have a Jr without an EnergyBar, you can power the 1LINK by UPS and then rely on the WAV Fallback feature if power to the Jr is lost.

    Fallback WAV_on_UPS

    This won't get you email alerts though.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    The first thing I'd like to point out is that the WAVs operate on 24VDC, not 12v.

    Regarding a dedicated battery backup unit like the Vortech batttery backup - such a specialized device is a low-volume niche product in a relatively small market and comes at a correspondingly relatively high price tag. Standard Uninterruptible Power Supplies on the other hand are produced at much higher volume for a wide variety of markets - you have more options for form factor and capacity (load and runtime) - you can get some pretty decent UPSs for the cost of a specialized/dedicated unit. I firmly believe that a UPS is not only much more flexible because you can use it to power the Apex (so it remains powered up and can trigger email alerts about a loss of primary power) and other equipment as desired, but also represents a better value.

    I see two common scenarios using an Apex and a UPS to provide backup power to the WAVs.

    1. Apex, Apex Lite, or Apex Jr, at least one EnergyBar, 1LINK, and WAV(s), but no 12v Aux power supply to the Apex and with the Power Monitor feature disabled. Connect only the 1LINK PS to the UPS. The UPS will provide uninterrupted power to the Apex base unit via AquaBus. Use an EB as the power sensor to detect if mains power is lost. Define a profile for the WAV(s) to use if mains power is out. I'll call it WAV_on_UPS - I would use Constant at a lower intensity or Pulse at about half the intensity that you'd normally use.
    In the WAV program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then WAV_on_UPS
    In the email program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then ON


    2. Apex or Apex Lite (not Jr), 12v aux adapter connected to the Apex/Apex Lite, Power Monitor feature enabled. Connect 1LINK PS to the UPS. The Apex aux power input is used as the loss-of-power sensor in this scenario. Define a WAV profile as described above.
    In the WAV program: If Power Apex OFF 001 Then WAV_on_UPS
    In the email program: If Power Apex OFF 001 Then ON

    There are several other, more advanced (and complicated) scenarios for those who have multiple EBs or who want to power other devices besides WAVs during a power outage, but that is beyond the scope of this. The two scenarios outlined here should be ample for most people who want to simply provide backup power to the Apex and WAV(s).
    Im really liking the idea. Anyone offhand know what the energy draw is on a wave pump running say 20% constant? Basically I'm trying to figure out how big of a ups buys how many hours per wav pump.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by n8n View Post
    Im really liking the idea. Anyone offhand know what the energy draw is on a wave pump running say 20% constant? Basically I'm trying to figure out how big of a ups buys how many hours per wav pump.
    About 7 watts. Although in all honesty, I would run just a single pump at 5-10% intensity. At that level, a $150 UPS can easily keep the tank running for at least 12 hours.

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    Alright Russ... I have your power point but here is what I have:

    2 EB8s, a 12v Adapter, a 1link and 2 wavs, and 1000va, 600w PFC tower. I have a vortech on an ecotech back up bat and a Gyre on an Ice cap bat, both said to provide 36 hours at 30% pump speed.


    So, if you had THIS system...how would you hook it up? I was thinking not to even bother with the 1link/wav and just use the apex with one of the EB8s as the power out sensor and have it run the main pump for 15 minutes once an hour with the skimmer running 10 of those minutes using the OSC feature and have it turn the heater on but not till the tank hit 75 degrees (cause that's probably going to be the end of the battery pretty quickly).

    On the other hand, since I have 2 pump batteries already I could just use the UPS to keep the apex on and monitor for a low temp at which point it run heater only....might a couple days use out of it that way but its going to have to turn on the main pump when it turns on the heater. (My main pump is around 30w and my heater is 800w).

    I'm thinking a set up for the worst case scenario: A 4 day power outage due to an ice storm with outside temps running 25 degrees F with me out of town and the roads impassible for a tank sitter to come to the house. (This happened 2 years ago). I also throw in 2 automatic bubblers running 2 D batteries each that automatically turn on when the power goes out any time there is a hurricaine or ice storm in the forecast.

    I just don't know whats best.

    Edit: I am guessing my 800w Heater will cause my UPS to fault so id have to hook up my 500W back up heater and use it as the heat source in a power outage???

    Edit II: It looks like running a heater is completely out of the question with one of these. So maybe the best use of it would be A loooong osc program where it waits about 34 hours and then turns on one pump at around 20% and just leaves it there until the battery dies (This would allow it to save its stored power while the vortech and Icap were functional and then only begin turning on around the time they died). Thoughts??

    Edit: III: Have one or both of the battery back up systems powered through the UPS, let the Apex control them on a low level OSC program and once the UPS dies they simply revert to their own back up batteries? I guess the downside of that is that you would lose your ability to remotely monitor faster as the UPS would be the first thing to go. The advantage would be that you might turn their 36 hour back up time into something like 60 hours or more. This is making my head hurt.

    Thanks in advance.

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    First off, what equipment is plugged into each EB8? The ideal scenario is to have the UPS power one of those with critical equipment plugged into it, but you can't have more than 600 W on that EB8 for that to be possible.


    In a power outage scenario, flow is much more important than heat. I would suggest running only the WAV pumps at their lowest setting and the battery operated air pumps to give you the longest possible time to get a generator running to power the heaters and return pump.

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    I want to try this and buy one from bestbuy or something. Does anyone have any suggestion / recommending on a UPS or how big of a UPS would be needed to be to run the wavs on a low constant flow for over 12-24 hours+? Or is that not possible?



    Thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by expo703 View Post
    I want to try this and buy one from bestbuy or something. Does anyone have any suggestion / recommending on a UPS or how big of a UPS would be needed to be to run the wavs on a low constant flow for over 12-24 hours+? Or is that not possible?



    Thanks,
    A 1500 VA cyberpower they sell at best buy will get you about 12 hours of low flow with a single pump set between 5 and 10 percent

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    A 1500 VA cyberpower they sell at best buy will get you about 12 hours of low flow with a single pump set between 5 and 10 percent
    damn thats it hmm so I would plug just the 1link into it? then setup a profile if one of my eb8's lose power it goes constant @ like 5%?

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    Quote Originally Posted by expo703 View Post
    damn thats it hmm so I would plug just the 1link into it? then setup a profile if one of my eb8's lose power it goes constant @ like 5%?

    That's what I did for mine. Actually I bought the http://www.bestbuy.com/site/apc-back...&skuId=8074044

    I have an EB and the 1 link plugged into it. I have a Virtual outlet that turns on if the other energy bars loose power. That in turn, turns off one WAV, and all the other outlets on the backed up EB except my wireless bridge (this also gets me a text). The other wave is set to pulse on/off Off for 60 seconds on for 10 seconds. This lasts for about 12 hours (estimated on the UPS at least, I haven't had a power outage... Yet.)
    Last edited by Mal7887; 10-24-2015 at 15:09. Reason: spelling

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    The answer to this may be obvious, but without knowing anything about the DC battery backups like the IceCap battery backup...

    Would this not working with the 1Link? It says it's 12V-24V compatible.

    http://www.marinedepot.com/Icecap_Ba...FIPHAC-vi.html

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    Oh I see now. There would have to be a separate input on the 1Link. Nevermind!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    The first thing I'd like to point out is that the WAVs operate on 24VDC, not 12v.

    Regarding a dedicated battery backup unit like the Vortech batttery backup - such a specialized device is a low-volume niche product in a relatively small market and comes at a correspondingly relatively high price tag. Standard Uninterruptible Power Supplies on the other hand are produced at much higher volume for a wide variety of markets - you have more options for form factor and capacity (load and runtime) - you can get some pretty decent UPSs for the cost of a specialized/dedicated unit. I firmly believe that a UPS is not only much more flexible because you can use it to power the Apex (so it remains powered up and can trigger email alerts about a loss of primary power) and other equipment as desired, but also represents a better value.

    I see two common scenarios using an Apex and a UPS to provide backup power to the WAVs.

    1. Apex, Apex Lite, or Apex Jr, at least one EnergyBar, 1LINK, and WAV(s), but no 12v Aux power supply to the Apex and with the Power Monitor feature disabled. Connect only the 1LINK PS to the UPS. The UPS will provide uninterrupted power to the Apex base unit via AquaBus. Use an EB as the power sensor to detect if mains power is lost. Define a profile for the WAV(s) to use if mains power is out. I'll call it WAV_on_UPS - I would use Constant at a lower intensity or Pulse at about half the intensity that you'd normally use.
    In the WAV program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then WAV_on_UPS
    In the email program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then ON


    2. Apex or Apex Lite (not Jr), 12v aux adapter connected to the Apex/Apex Lite, Power Monitor feature enabled. Connect 1LINK PS to the UPS. The Apex aux power input is used as the loss-of-power sensor in this scenario. Define a WAV profile as described above.
    In the WAV program: If Power Apex OFF 001 Then WAV_on_UPS
    In the email program: If Power Apex OFF 001 Then ON

    There are several other, more advanced (and complicated) scenarios for those who have multiple EBs or who want to power other devices besides WAVs during a power outage, but that is beyond the scope of this. The two scenarios outlined here should be ample for most people who want to simply provide backup power to the Apex and WAV(s).
    I've got 3 WAV's...would you suggest programming just one unit or more?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    About 7 watts. Although in all honesty, I would run just a single pump at 5-10% intensity. At that level, a $150 UPS can easily keep the tank running for at least 12 hours.
    With this scenario how would I have the WAVs default to a lower intensity than normal operation while is on UPS backup?

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    @RussM I hooked up a UPC to my system as you instructed with the 1 link plugged into it and coded:

    In the WAV program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then WAV_on_UPS
    In the email program: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then ON


    The problem I have is that as you said, the 1 link feeds the rest of the system power. I am only getting an estimated 2 hours of run time at the UPC>

    I noticed that of course the apex is powered still and lights on at the dos.

    To resolve this do I need to add a line to all other outlets and modules to turn off on battery power? such as: If Power EB8_3 OFF 001 Then OFF

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    That's what I did. With one WAV running at 1% and everything else off at a power failure, I can get over 6 hours. Funny thing is 2 weeks after I got my ups "online" I lost power for an hour and a half. It worked out great because #1 I was home when it happend and also I was able to play with my WAV on UPS profile to squeeze out as much time as possible. Surprised that even at 1% I had decent. 1 pump was fine on my 120g

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