Controlling my ATO

[ReefAble]

Hi guys I am new here so please excuse me for anything I post. I tried to get answer to my question here but I am a newbie to programming and hence need help.

I need my Apex unit to control my JBJ ATO which I use to supplement KALKWASSER to my system. I use Rio 1100 pump to do the job right now however since I have most recently added KALKWASSER to my ATO reservoir I want to control how much I can add to keep my ph under 8.4. For now the JBJ is just connect to my apex with ON position (no programming at all). I need to control in such a way that I can spread the supplementation of KALKWASSER over the period of 24hrs instead of adding a whole lot at the same time when the sensor in the sump closes and activates the RIO pump and most importantly keeping the ph under 8.4. The evaporation rate of my system is roughly 1G a day. Thanks.


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[ReefAble]

Bump anyone


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[RussM]

That 382GPH pump is way too big to use safely for ATO, especially with kalk; it's a recipe for disaster. At its rated flow rate, it only takes about 9.4 seconds to move 1 gallon. Use a *much* smaller pump.

That being said, here's how I'd do it...

Program the Apex to turn on the ATO outlet for a brief period each hour, allowing the JBJ using to turn on the pump if ATO is needed. Allow only enough time per day to match the evaporation rate of the tank plus a bit of padding. Basically, you'll use the Apex to control how often and how long the JBJ will be allowed to operate.

Your tank loses about 1g/day to evaporation... let's add 10% to that... 1.1g. Calculate how long it takes for your appropriately-sized pump to move 1.1g. Divide that by 24 hours to determine how much is needed per hour. Then use the Apex OSC command to turn on the ATO outlet for that amount of time each hour. Add a high pH cutoff.

An example: Let's say you get a BRS 50ml ATO/dosing pump. (which would be a good choice here).

1.1g = about 4160 ml
Pump flow rate: 50ml/min
4160/50 = 83.2 minutes of runtime needed per day.
83.2 minutes / 24 hours in a day = 3 minutes and 28 seconds of run per hour

Your ATO outlet program:

Fallback OFF
OSC 000:00/003:28/056:32 Then ON
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF

[ReefAble]

That 382GPH pump is way too big to use safely for ATO, especially with kalk; it's a recipe for disaster. At its rated flow rate, it only takes about 9.4 seconds to move 1 gallon. Use a *much* smaller pump.

That being said, here's how I'd do it...

Program the Apex to turn on the ATO outlet for a brief period each hour, allowing the JBJ using to turn on the pump if ATO is needed. Allow only enough time per day to match the evaporation rate of the tank plus a bit of padding. Basically, you'll use the Apex to control how often and how long the JBJ will be allowed to operate.

Your tank loses about 1g/day to evaporation... let's add 10% to that... 1.1g. Calculate how long it takes for your appropriately-sized pump to move 1.1g. Divide that by 24 hours to determine how much is needed per hour. Then use the Apex OSC command to turn on the ATO outlet for that amount of time each hour. Add a high pH cutoff.

An example: Let's say you get a BRS 50ml ATO/dosing pump. (which would be a good choice here).

1.1g = about 4160 ml
Pump flow rate: 50ml/min
4160/50 = 83.2 minutes of runtime needed per day.
83.2 minutes / 24 hours in a day = 3 minutes and 28 seconds of run per hour

Your ATO outlet program:

Fallback OFF
OSC 000:00/003:28/056:32 Then ON
If pH > 8.40 Then OFF

Hi Russ thanks for your response I forgot to mention I am controlling the flow from the Rio pump with a ball valve to an absolute drip.

[ReefAble]

Hi Russ I have determined the following flow rate based on the drip rate from my rio pump controlled by ball valve.
- Pump flow rate: 75ml/min
- 4160/75 = 55.46 mins runtime per day
- 55.46/24 gives me a run time of 2.31 mins per hour.
Based on this I over wrote your program below please let me know if this is correct:

Fallback OFF
OSC 000:00/002:31/057:29 Then ON
If PH > 8.40 Then OFF

[RussM]

You almost got it right! You made an oversight when doing the math; you forgot to convert 2.31 minutes into MM:SS. 2.31 minutes is 2 minutes & 18.67 seconds; call it 2:19. The OSC statement should be:

OSC 000:00/002:19/057:41 Then ON

I created a web-based tool to prevent math errors like this https://www.reeftronics.net/adpg

[ReefAble]

You almost got it right! You made an oversight when doing the math; you forgot to convert 2.31 minutes into MM:SS. 2.31 minutes is 2 minutes & 18.67 seconds; call it 2:19. The OSC statement should be:

OSC 000:00/002:19/057:41 Then ON
I created a web-based tool to prevent math errors like this https://www.reeftronics.net/adpg

wow I didn't realized that oversite however I still am trying to get my head around that conversion but thank you so much for your kind help. I have updated my coding to reflect the above code. Thanks again for all your help. That web based tool is very helpful good work...

[RussM]

To convert minutes in decimal format to MM:SS format, take just the part to the right of the decimal point and multiply it by 60 (the number of seconds in a minute)

10.25 minutes = 10 minutes and 0.25 minutes = 10 minutes and (0.25 * 60) seconds = 10 minutes and 15 seconds = 10:15 in MM:SS format

[ReefAble]

To convert minutes in decimal format to MM:SS format, take just the part to the right of the decimal point and multiply it by 60 (the number of seconds in a minute)

10.25 minutes = 10 minutes and 0.25 minutes = 10 minutes and (0.25 * 60) seconds = 10 minutes and 15 seconds = 10:15 in MM:SS format

Aahhh got it so basically its the number after the decimal is the percentage of 60...in my case it was 2.31 so 31% of 60 which comes to 18.6 or 19 seconds...Thank you so much to clear this out for me...man math is so simple if you can figure it out and yet so hard if you are lost in the numbers

[hukent]

i am expriencing the same issue right now. This is a good post. can google or put in search box should come up. kalkwasser ato to minimize ph swing. This may help.

[ReefAble]

i am expriencing the same issue right now. This is a good post. can google or put in search box should come up. kalkwasser ato to minimize ph swing. This may help.

Thanks Hukent and many thanks to Russ for being so helpful...

[ReefAble]

You almost got it right! You made an oversight when doing the math; you forgot to convert 2.31 minutes into MM:SS. 2.31 minutes is 2 minutes & 18.67 seconds; call it 2:19. The OSC statement should be:

OSC 000:00/002:19/057:41 Then ON

I created a web-based tool to prevent math errors like this https://www.reeftronics.net/adpg

Hi Russ
I have a problem. So since I have started controlling my ATO with a PH statement I have been finding that my ATO cannot keep up with the evaporation rate of my aquarium and I find when I get home in the evening or when I wake up that the water level is actually BELOW the sensor in the sump. I saw my graph on the apex and it shows my Ph increases from noon from at 8.25 to 8.3 by 1pm and than to 8.35 by 3pm. This gives very small dosage amount of kalkwasser as once the PH hits 8.4 the apex will cut the power off to my ATO. How do I solve this problem?

If I remove the PH control statement from my programming than it will create a spike. I have replaced my pump with aqualifter which I am controlling to 50ml/minute flow rate. Increasing the dosing time wont help either as the apex will turn off the ATO as soon as the PH hits 8.4 threshold. Please advise what can I do. Shall I just dose kalkwasser separately and not in my ATO and control the kalkwasser dosing by apex individually than? I would like to have it togather though.

[Seeady66]

Gday
just ajust your kalk in the ato container if you put 4 teaspoons in try 3 and see how u go.

[ReefAble]

Gday
just ajust your kalk in the ato container if you put 4 teaspoons in try 3 and see how u go.

Gday to you too Seeady...great input I will do that...In this regards can I dilute the kalkwasser currently in my ATO reservoir by adding fresh RO water?

[Seeady66]

I would make a new small batch with less in see how that goes than just keep adjusting till u find what your tank needs. Then u will be able to make larger batches hope this helps.

[ReefAble]

I would make a new small batch with less in see how that goes than just keep adjusting till u find what your tank needs. Then u will be able to make larger batches hope this helps.

Got it. Thank you and will keep you guys posted...

[fab]

Shall I just dose kalkwasser separately and not in my ATO and control the kalkwasser dosing by apex individually than? I would like to have it togather though.

Your dilemma is that you are trying to kill two birds with one stone. That works as long as you can hit both birds each time. When the birds start flying farther apart it stops working.

You are trying to match two things that are each changing independently of each other, water loss rate and calcium uptake rate. Plus you are trying to throttle back on both your water replenishment rate and your kalkwasser dosing rate when your PH gets too high.

You can fiddle with the concentration of the kalkwasser and the ATO rate so you get both to work out together, but you will not have a stable solution. The two replenishment rates that you are trying to synchronize to will drift independently of each other. Rather, you will have to monitor your ATO/kalk dosing and adjust all of their parameters over and over again because evaporation rates and calcium uptake rates change and they do so independently of each other. The birds fly in formation but they do drift apart while flying. You become the controller instead of letting Apex do it for you. It gets tedious. It gets dangerous if you don't keep up with it.

The best way to do what you want done with minimum manual intervention on your part is to decouple these two normally independent processes. Match ATO to actual water loss, not even to estimates of evaporation rates. Independently match kalkwasser dosing rates with estimated calcium uptake rates. Use a dosing pump for each one.

For ATO, using water level switches takes the guesswork (some prefer to call it estimating) out of the picture by measuring actual water losses. Unless you have water leaks, these losses are from evaporation and can be replaced with freshwater. One switch signals low water so it is time to begin topping off. The other switch signals high water so stop topping off. This can proceed without regard to the behavior of PH in your system, as it should anyway.

For dosing the kalkwasser you will have to monitor calcium and alkalinity levels manually to determine the right amount of kalkwasser to dose daily. Apex can guard against PH rising too high for you, automatically overriding the dosing pump's operation when PH is too high. Normal aquarium PH behavior is for it to rise during the day and to drop at night. Dosing kalkwasser during the night takes advantage of lower nightime PH levels to help keep the PH from rising too high. Further, spreading out the dosing over longer timeframes at very low flow rates helps to keep PH from getting out of hand.

So my advice is to throw one stone at each bird. Use two dosing pumps, one for ATO and one for kalkwasser. A single DOS unit does this perfectly well.