Help with 2 float switch ato program

[spiderpoof]

I have my ato program running off of a sump low float and sump high float. Then I have a 3rd that is a to high float. The problem I am having is the sump low switch it turing on the ato and as soon as the sump low float raises it turns it back on so the sump water level is never getting to the sump high float.

Fallback OFF
If Outlet sump_low = ON Then ON
If Outlet sump_high = ON Then OFF
If Outlet sump_to_high = ON Then OFF
Defer 005:00 Then ON
If pH = 8.40 Then OFF

That us what my ato program looks like

[Frogfish]

Switches are either open or closed. You have them shown as on or off.

[p7willm]

A couple of problems.

On my system, with kalk in the top off water, the pH will lag a bit so while you will shut down when it hits 8.4 the pH will probably continue to rise for a bit and when it gets to 8.41 the ATO will turn back on. So this should be pH > 8.39. This will keep it off as long as the pH is above 8.4

Another thing you might want is to turn the ATO off if it has tried to fill for a time but has not made it. This takes 2 virtual outlets.

vATOTime
If Outlet ATO = ON Then ON
If Outlet vReset = ON Then OFF
Defer 010:00 Then ON

vReset
Set OFF

stick a If Outlet vATOTime = ON Then OFF in your ATO outlet. If it runs or 10 minutes and does not fill the tank up then something is wrong that you need to fix. Fix the problem and, with Fusion, turn vReset ON for a few seconds and then OFF. This will turn vATOTime OFF and the ATO will refill.

Now, your problem. Once the outlet is turned ON by sump_low, after 5 minutes, the only thing to turn it off should be outlet sump_high or outlet sump_to_high coming on or the pH becoming 8.40. What is the programming for the 3 outlets cause there is likely some problem there.

[spiderpoof]

A couple of problems.

On my system, with kalk in the top off water, the pH will lag a bit so while you will shut down when it hits 8.4 the pH will probably continue to rise for a bit and when it gets to 8.41 the ATO will turn back on. So this should be pH > 8.39. This will keep it off as long as the pH is above 8.4

Another thing you might want is to turn the ATO off if it has tried to fill for a time but has not made it. This takes 2 virtual outlets.

vATOTime
If Outlet ATO = ON Then ON
If Outlet vReset = ON Then OFF
Defer 010:00 Then ON

vReset
Set OFF

stick a If Outlet vATOTime = ON Then OFF in your ATO outlet. If it runs or 10 minutes and does not fill the tank up then something is wrong that you need to fix. Fix the problem and, with Fusion, turn vReset ON for a few seconds and then OFF. This will turn vATOTime OFF and the ATO will refill.

Now, your problem. Once the outlet is turned ON by sump_low, after 5 minutes, the only thing to turn it off should be outlet sump_high or outlet sump_to_high coming on or the pH becoming 8.40. What is the programming for the 3 outlets cause there is likely some problem there.

Thanks. That is all good info I will change that now. And as far as my problem I agree. The problem I am having is sump low it turning it on and off. As if there was only one float running my ato

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Switches are either open or closed. You have them shown as on or off.

You are correct but I actually have my switches controlling virtual Outlets so it is easier to right my program

[spiderpoof]

Thanks. That is all good info I will change that now. And as far as my problem I agree. The problem I am having is sump low it turning it on and off. As if there was only one float running my ato

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You are correct but I actually have my switches controlling virtual Outlets so it is easier to right my program

As for the programing of the other 3 outlets they are

Sump_low
If sw4 OPEN Then off
If sw4 closed then on

Sump_high
If sw3 open then on
If sw3 closed then off

Sump_to_high
If sw1 closed then off
If sw1 open then on

[vhuang168]

I think you have your sw3 reversed. When it is open, you have it as on which in turn turns off your ATO. I think you want it to change it off when open.


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[p7willm]

You can display the virtual outlets on Fusion, just drag them from the unused area down to the display. Then you can see their state in the upper left of each tile. The next time the ATO turns on low should be ON and the other two OFF (that is the only way ATO will turn on). As it fills low should go OFF and the fill should continue. Next high should turn on and the fill should stop.

As an aside when you have new programming you should try to test it as much as possible so you should have high stay off and be sure the ATO turns off when to_high comes on. Also check that to_high is working as part of occasional maintenance. I have a check list that I run every quarter to be sure stuff that does not normally matter is still working. Its a bummer to find out to_high is not working the one time you need it.

[spiderpoof]

I think you have your sw3 reversed. When it is open, you have it as on which in turn turns off your ATO. I think you want it to change it off when open.


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Ya I see what your saying. That one messes with me too. But I have it set up that the sump_high should be on when the sump is full so if something happens to my switch connections all 3 floats default back to States that command the ato to be off. So sump_high on means ato off

[spiderpoof]

You can display the virtual outlets on Fusion, just drag them from the unused area down to the display. Then you can see their state in the upper left of each tile. The next time the ATO turns on low should be ON and the other two OFF (that is the only way ATO will turn on). As it fills low should go OFF and the fill should continue. Next high should turn on and the fill should stop.

As an aside when you have new programming you should try to test it as much as possible so you should have high stay off and be sure the ATO turns off when to_high comes on. Also check that to_high is working as part of occasional maintenance. I have a check list that I run every quarter to be sure stuff that does not normally matter is still working. Its a bummer to find out to_high is not working the one time you need it.

When I manually control the floats my virtual Outlets do what I want them to do. But my ato Outlet seems to ignore the fact that the sump_high is telling it to stay on. When. Sump_low turns on the ato turns on. When sump_low turns off the ato Outlet turns off. Regardless if sump_high is still telling it to stay on. That is where I am having problems.

[vhuang168]

Ya I see what your saying. That one messes with me too. But I have it set up that the sump_high should be on when the sump is full so if something happens to my switch connections all 3 floats default back to States that command the ato to be off. So sump_high on means ato off

Yes but you have it set where when your switch is OPEN, it is ON.

Meaning when you float switch is not activated or i.e. when the water level is LOW, sump_high is ON when it should be OFF.


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[spiderpoof]

Yes but you have it set where when your switch is OPEN, it is ON.


Meaning when you float switch is not activated or i.e. when the water level is LOW, sump_high is ON when it should be OFF.


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Yes but in my ato I have this

Fallback OFF
If Outlet T_TLIMIT_ATO = ON Then OFF
If Outlet sump_low = ON Then ON
If Outlet sump_high = ON Then OFF
If Outlet sump_to_high = ON Then OFF
Defer 005:00 Then ON
If pH > 8.39 Then OFF

So unless I am missing something (which is totally possible cause I have been staying at this for so long lol) sump_high on means ato off

[vhuang168]

Correct but look at what position your switch is when sump_high is ON?

Sump_high is ON when sw3 is Open.


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[spiderpoof]

Correct but look at what position your switch is when sump_high is ON?

Sump_high is ON when sw3 is Open.


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I am sorry I should have mentioned that I have the sw3 orientated so that when the Water Lvl is low it is closed

[vhuang168]

Then the logic is sound. Do you have the ATO pump plugged into a triac outlet or a relay outlet. Triac outlets sometimes don't turn off when the load is low.


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[spiderpoof]

Then the logic is sound. Do you have the ATO pump plugged into a triac outlet or a relay outlet. Triac outlets sometimes don't turn off when the load is low.


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It is plugged into a relay one. I can here the relay click and the sump high and sump to high will both shut off the ato if I hold the sump low in the lower position. I just can't figure out why the sump low isn't latching on until the sump high is triggered

[p7willm]

Based on the order of switches both sump_high and sump_to_high must be off and sump_low must be on to have this outlet turn on, and be that way for 5 minutes because of the defer. After it turns on sump_low should have no effect on the outlet, the only statements involving it is the = ON Then ON.

Based on the code you have shown it should work. I am not accusing you of not posting all the code. But, there is no Set command in the code, correct? After is stops wait until Fusion updates and check the state of sump_low, it should be OFF. One of sump_high and sump_to_high should be ON. Now, you are saying the switches for sump_high or sump_to_high are in a state where both should be OFF? Or all three outlets are OFF. Drag the switches from the unused box and look at what state Fusion thinks they are in. Hopefully one of the switches will not be in the state you expect or one of the outlets will not be where you expect it to be based on the switch positions. Let us know the switch positions and the outlet states after the ATO stops.

[p7willm]

Sump_low, and the other outlets you have, do not latch. They all change as soon as the switch changes. Sump_low turns ON as soon as sw4 closes and will go off whenever sw4 opens. In fact as the water level drops sw4 may close and open, causing sump_low to switch ON and OFF. The ATO outlet will not come on until sw4 closes and stays closed for 5 minutes.

Water will start to fill and sw4 will open and sump_low will go OFF. This will have no effect on the ATO outlet. Once sump_low turns the ATO outlet on nothing sump_low does has any effect on the ATO outlet. At least that is the theory. We need to find something we are missing that is allowing sw4 to turn the ATO off.

[spiderpoof]

Based on the order of switches both sump_high and sump_to_high must be off and sump_low must be on to have this outlet turn on, and be that way for 5 minutes because of the defer. After it turns on sump_low should have no effect on the outlet, the only statements involving it is the = ON Then ON.

Based on the code you have shown it should work. I am not accusing you of not posting all the code. But, there is no Set command in the code, correct? After is stops wait until Fusion updates and check the state of sump_low, it should be OFF. One of sump_high and sump_to_high should be ON. Now, you are saying the switches for sump_high or sump_to_high are in a state where both should be OFF? Or all three outlets are OFF. Drag the switches from the unused box and look at what state Fusion thinks they are in. Hopefully one of the switches will not be in the state you expect or one of the outlets will not be where you expect it to be based on the switch positions. Let us know the switch positions and the outlet states after the ATO stops.

her is a screen shot of the current state of my switches and outlets for the ato. ignore sw2 it is for a work lamp hooked to my doors.
as it looks to me my ato should be on but it isnt

Screenshot_20160810-153026.jpg

[p7willm]

When it fills does it go up to about sw3? As soon as sw3 opens the ATO will turn off and by the time Fusion asks the Apex for it's data sw3 may again be closed so you would never see sw3 closed. Does the water get up to the point where sw3 may be bouncing closed to open?

[spiderpoof]

When it fills does it go up to about sw3? As soon as sw3 opens the ATO will turn off and by the time Fusion asks the Apex for it's data sw3 may again be closed so you would never see sw3 closed. Does the water get up to the point where sw3 may be bouncing closed to open?

No the water never gets above switch 4. The min switch 4 opens the ato shuts off

[spiderpoof]

so I made a program in another outlet and put in the program line by line and tested it each time. it works perfectly until I add the defer line into it. once I add it in it goes back to the sump_low outlet turning it on and off. any ideas?

[vhuang168]

Move the defer line up so that it is right under the sump_low statement. See if that solves it.


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[spiderpoof]

Move the defer line up so that it is right under the sump_low statement. See if that solves it.


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Nope. Same thing.

[spiderpoof]

Nope. Same thing.

I guess if I am running a 2 float ato, do I really need the defer in there? I mean I would like it in there but it seems like something isn't working right with it.

[p7willm]

I just ran a test and it worked fine. In Fusion I turned off 3 virtual outlets. I turned 1 on and 5 minutes later the test outlet turned on. Then I turned off the first one and the test outlet stayed on. I turned the second on for 2 seconds and the test turned off.

Enable logging for the outlets, virtual and real, and everything should show up in the log. In the log I can see the first virtual outlet come on and 5 minutes later the the test outlet comes on. Turning off the first outlet shows up and there is nothing from the test outlet. A bit later I flip the second outlet and it shows up and in the same second the second shows up as ON the test shows up as OFF.