Simple Latch (How?). Shut off Return Pump/ATO if Flood Sensor(s) Triggered

[wbrejnia]

Need help for Flood Detect programming (Turn pump off, Forever)

I see so many answers...(I used to know, but my programming Virtual Stuff is rusty)

It seems simple with a Virtual Outlet (Latch) or two.

Please point me to the right sticky or thread for this simple piece of code.

I have a Floor Sensor on my tank Stand base, in case return drain gets plugged by a snail.
And a 2nd Flood Sensor on Floor.

When (EITHER) Flood Sensor trigger (due to Tank overflowing):

- I want my Sump Return pump to TURN OFF (LATCH), permanently until I manually clear the Latch.
- I want to Disable my Auto Top-off Pump (Latch), permanently until I manually clear the Latch

Basically I don't want the Return pump to come on after a flood, even when sensor dries up,
and I don't want ATO topping up an unknown situation (ie tank cracked).

FLOOD SENSOR_TANK = Swx3_1
FLOOD SENSOR_FLOOR = Swx3_2

RETURN PUMP = EB8_A1_PUMP
TOP UP PUMP = EB8_A2_PUMP

[Frogfish]

You can use a VO without a set command

The VO turns on when any of your switches are closed and only turns off with a push button, or feed button, reset. If the switches open the VO won't change state as nothing tells it to, until the pushbutton is pressed.

Then in in your equipment you put as your last statement that the outlet is off if the VO is on

[wbrejnia]

Sounded to good to the true.

I made a (VO) with the following line (Nothing else)

If Swx3_1 CLOSED Then ON

Then I set VO to OFF, then AUTO

After a While (30 secs) it (VO) would turn, ON (While in AUTO), even thought the switch never closes. At least that is what shows on the Web Panel.
You sure this works (No Set Statement). Why does it switch to ON (with no set statement, weird).

[wbrejnia]

No. That "NO SET" idea doesn't work.

VO outlet even changes to ON with the Following statement.

If TMP-B > 81.0 Then ON

But Temp is always 78.

The latch must be another method, using two VO's, and a defer or Min time statement (if I remember correctly).

[Simon P]

2 VOs to latch.
VO#1: "Reset Latch Pump"
Code :Set Off
VO#2: Latch "Return Pump"
Code:
If Outlet Res_Ltch_Pump = ON Then OFF
If "Flood Sensor Tank" CLOSED Then ON
Add as many conditions to latch as you want. Like Sump Lo, etc...
In your "Return Pump" outlet (the EB outlet actually powering your pump) add this code:
If Outlet "Latch Pump" = On then Off
VO#1 is the latch reset and is used to MANUALLY reset the latch. You simply toggle from Auto to ON for a few seconds if the latch has tripped. 1-2sec works for me. Too fast and the latch wont disengage.
VO#2 is the latch outlet itself. The reset (first line) and the latch conditions you want are the code. Add as many conditions as you want, wether they be leak detectors of level switches. You can also add defer statements to lengthen the reaction time if needed.
In the examples above I put in "quotation marks" the outlet and switch names. Just change to your own naming scheme.
Here's my latch for the main return pump:

VO#2 Outlet name:

Ltch_MPmp
If Outlet Rs_Ltch_MPmp = ON Then OFF
If Lk_Pmp CLOSED Then ON
If Lk_Flo CLOSED Then ON
If SumpLo CLOSED Then ON

VO#1 Outlet Name:

Rs_Ltch_MPmp
Set Off

Outlet Name:

Main_Pmp_Power
Fallback ON
Set ON
If Outlet Latch_MPmp = ON Then OFF

Hope this helps.

[wbrejnia]

Hey Simon,

Thanks, this does work (for catching a flood).

But if the Flood sensor dries up (in my case since on the tank ledge and not in a pool on floor), (the RETURN Pump will start up and flood again (Snail is still stuck in the return pipe example). Also the ATO will keep over topping up (since my supply is endless) and really make the flooding continue.

((( The reason for my sensor placement is to catch the flood early. The rim on my Tank Cabinet is raise around my tank. Only one opening, so even the smallest amount of water over the tank top will get to the sensor))) (Yeah I could make it closed and that would pool the water, but then I block my preferred flood route channel)

What I want is for the latch engage (on a flood) and STAY STUCK (so Return Pump, won't turn on till I'm manual allow it, by clearing the latch).
I know this is possible (I did it somehow a couple of years ago while learning Apex Programming).

I tested your code, and it doesn't do that. (THE SET OFF, Makes that VO=OFF, when in Auto)

Did I misunderstand something in your example?

[wbrejnia]

IF FIGURED IT OUT (The Locking LATCH, with "TWO" VO LATCHES). Tested it and works.

To test without Affecting my PUMP (I created a 3rd VO, to simulated a FLOOD SWITCH called VO(SWITCH), which you can Manually Set to ON or OFF to test logic).

Create two Virtual Outlets


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..............// statements are comments not CODE

VO_LATCH_1
SET OFF
IF VO_LATCH_2 = ON Then ON
MIN TIME 0:30 Then ON .................// Holds the Latch in ON for 30 seconds

VO_LATCH_2
SET OFF
IF OUTLET VO(Switch) = ON then ON .................// This would normally be a FLOOD SWITCH test (IF SW3_1 CLOSED then ON ) // Also MIN TIME doesn't affect a Switch if it changes //
IF VO_LATCH_2 = ON Then ON ........................// Last Statement in VO or OUTLET Overrides previous statements (ALWAYS)
MIN TIME 0:30 Then ON .................................// Holds the Latch in ON for 30 seconds

RETURN_PUMP_POWER (EB8 OUTLET)
Set ON
...
IF LATCH_2 ON then OFF ................. // (You could trigger on LATCH_1, since both VO's get STUCK. LATCH_2 will trigger Faster)
...
...

VO(Switch) // ** this is fake VO Switch for Simulation/Testing (Only use in Manual ON or OFF, Not AUTO)
Fallback OFF .................// Switch needs something for acceptance // But not used since Manual Switch Done
SET OFF........................// Switch needs something for acceptance // But not used since Manual Switch Done

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What it does is:

- Use Any CONDITION Triggers you want in LATCH_2 ( Flood, Sump LOW sensors)

- ONCE VO_LATCH_2 triggers ON, it triggers VO_LATCH_1, and if EITHER LATCHES go ON (The OTHER LATCH GOES ON, or STAYS ON) (Basically STUCK LOGIC)

- The MIN TIME on VO_LATCH_1 (30 Seconds) (Keep the LATCHES ON)
-------- (Delays change to OFF for 30 seconds)
--------- Thus preventing Clearing VO_LATCH_2 even if FLOOD SENSOR DRIES)
--------- This is there just in case if takes times for the Apex to get Either Latch Statements) * Assuming Apex isn't busy for more than 30 seconds between checks*

"FLIP-FLOP" Logic, but the MIN TIME doesn't allow the LATCHES to "FLOP" BACK (while in Auto)


TO RESET THE LATCHES (or Turn on RETURN PUMP if Flood_Switch clear, YOU JUST MANUALLY (SET VO_LATCH1 and VO_LATCH_2 TO OFF, THEN TO AUTO, to RESET THE BOTH LATCH TRIGGER TRAPS)


RETURN PUMP will Never Turn one while Flood Switch is WET. (And Latches in AUTO). But if you want, you could FORCE LATCH_2 to OFF (to ignore WET Flood Switch. Assuming you are in control of flood)

Sorry for the Blah, Blah explanation (whated to be clear)
I think I got it right (Maybe could be simpler). (I waited Many Minutes and latches still stuck, PUMP Still off)

[Simon P]

Hmmm...
Maybe I need to test my own programming but it's worked fine in the past.
My latch doesn't revert back to OFF (when a swtich dries up or the level sensor repositions itself) because it has no SET statement. It stays in it's last commanded state indefinatly or until you manually reset it with the reset outlet. At least I think it does but since it's been a few years since I made these now you've got me doubting...
WRT the top off, you simply add a line in the ATO outlet referencing the latch. IF Outlet Main Pump Latch = On then Off.
You're right though that depending on how many outlets and VO's you have it slows the response time. I believe the Apex polls each outlet one at a time (can't remember the frequency) so if there are many outlets it takes longer to go through the list and implement a change or action in one of them.
In any case you've figured out something that does work for you so cheers!
Simon

[wbrejnia]

Nope, for some reason my programming isn't working. May not be CODE.

I think I may have a flaky WATER_SENSOR Switch. It may be closing very briefly, and doesn't show up on the WEB Interface quick Enough.
(Simon, it may be why your simple code didn't work for me) (and maybe why my FAKE VO_OUTLET Switch worked).

Is there a way to capture the Switch States accurately (even for a short transition)?

[Simon P]

Are you using the Neptune ALD as a leak detection device? Or is this some other switch tied into a BOB?
I have an ALD and although the leak detectors are pretty good I have, over the course of the last 2 years or so, found 1 bad sensor. So they do go bad sometimes...
I'll test out my latch code tonight but I can say for sure that my skimmer pump latch works fine as it tripped last Friday. The latch stops the skimmer pump from restarting after a power outage (I made my own Barr Aquatics style twin Beckett skimmer and they can be a bit of a pain to set so I prefer restarting manually in the event of a power outage). Power went out, latch "latched" and when power resumed the skimmer stayed off until I manually reset the latch.
My leak switches/latches don't get tested as often. Kinda self explanatory...
I don't know of a way to capture quick transitions of switch states but I'll think about it.

[wbrejnia]

Simon,

I not using an ALD, but a FLAIR WaterGuard VIP-1000H20 Sensor. https://www.aartech.ca/vip1000-h2o-f...vdc-white.html
And on basic testing is work perfectly. (Even detected RO water very Low TDS, which doesn't work for all H20 Sensors).

But I'm baffled on how my ApexJR is acting (I may need a firmware for a bug CURRENT FIRMWARE 4.32J_7A14)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I put my RETURN PUMP on this statement (it never turns off)

EB8 (OUTLET) with Return PUMP (set to Auto)Set ON
Fallback ON
SET ON
If Outlet FLOOD_LATCH= ON Then OFF

But this doesn't do the LATCH (Keep off if water dries up) which I want.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet, this Latch Program doesn't work (NO Set)

FLOOD_LATCH (VO)
If Swx3_4 CLOSED Then ON

When I set the LATCH to AUTO, VO turns to ON (Even if Flood_sensor [Swx3_4] never goes CLOSED). Even if I disconnect the Sensor Totally.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if I do the following with sensor Attached (It stays OFF, while sensor is dry, and goes ON if Sensor is wet)

FLOOD_LATCH (VO)
If Swx3_4 CLOSED Then ON
If Swx3_4 OPEN Then OFF

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SO, I'm giving up for now, since I really want to test my new RLSS DC12000 Waveline Pump on (Variable speed Via Apex VDM). Repalcing my MAG 18.
Yup I need this big pump for a 90 Gal Tank since Sump is in Basement, and Tank on 1st floor (16 Feet up).
When I set it to anything above 40% it makes my RETURN Scream. Nice tank circulation, but really dangerous if anything were to Plug my Return pipe. (Even with the Cage Guard on the Return)

SO FOR now (I siliconed a mini Guard Rail around my Sensor, that it will pool the water and it won't dry out too fast)

This will give me the safety I need, while I run my system in MAX for brief moments... (and I'm not around to watch)

[Simon P]

I just tested this on my own test VO and an ALD sensor:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FLOOD_LATCH (VO)
If Swx3_4 CLOSED Then ON

When I set the LATCH to AUTO, VO turns to ON (Even if Flood_sensor [Swx3_4] never goes CLOSED). Even if I disconnect the Sensor Totally.

And I got the expected result, VO on Auto stayed Off (as I had an open switch).
So I would try a firmware update to see if it resolves this. Unless the Jr is different from the Classic I have you're on a fairly old FW version.
Also, a sponge or folded up paper towel would keep the sensor wet for a lot longer until this is resolved.
I'm also a new user of the Waveline DC12000/VDM. Works fine but no off capability unless you cut the power to the outlet/controller. Also it wines a bit but so do all brushless DC pumps right? Byproduct of high frequency switching IIRC.

[wbrejnia]

I'll try an Firmware upgrade. Also I have a Apex Classic running FIRMWARE 4.32_7A14 (just as old) , so will try the code there too, to compare behaviour.

As Far As DC12000, I could put it on a EB8 for on/off, but anything below 20% and it doesn't push water up to 1st floor. So technically not on (return flow).
Pretty quiet for me so far. Other Tank is on a DC1000, and it's quiet too. But all noisiy things are in the Basement Sump room, so I'm fine.

[wbrejnia]

So I solved the RETURN PUMP (Latch Programming).

My problem was my Latch Kept Floating to OFF, when I started in ON Initially. I have no Idea why (Even Did a Firmware upgrade and the same)

So I reversed my Latch, and Manually SET it to OFF. It never went ON by itself, until Sensor got WET and triggered the FloodLatch.


The WET Sensor Virtual OUTLET, Changes LATCH to OFF (and it Stays off, until Manually Reset to ON). So Pump Turns off and Stay off.


Picture Shows the Logic and Programming better.

LatchProgrammingSolvedRETURNPUMPoff.jpg

Now I could actually Remove the FLOOD Latch, and trigger right off the Sensor Switch Input.

But the Nice thing about using a VO latch that tracks the Switch, is you get logging (to catch a flaky sensor, or a Flood/Leak Event)

[Frogfish]

Glad you finally got it working

[wbrejnia]

Glad you finally got it working

I wish it was working (as described above).

But it DOES NOT. (I did a final test before hooking up the Sensor on the tank)

No matter if I SET LATCH to (ON or OFF) manually, then to AUTO, it flips and Turns off EB8.

HOWEVER I figured out How I got Latch to HOLD.

After LATCH goes to ON or OFF (in Auto). I set the EB8 to match that Latched condition (to keep EB8 off).
THEN THE LATCH doesn't flip.
2016-09-19_LatchWorksOnlywithEB8onOffflip.jpg

I have no idea why this happens. (Does the EB8 condition on the VO do something)?

This trick appears to work. (Not perfect, but if it holds, I'm happy).
Time to move on to other things.