Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30

Thread: FMM Fluid sensor doubts

  1. #1
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    125

    Unhappy FMM Fluid sensor doubts

    So, I recently installed the FMM and 1" FMM sensor on my REEFER 450. The return pump is a Ecotech Vectra M1. When I have it maxed out at 100%, APEX is telling me the flow is only 487 GPH. Here's the plumbing setup (yes the flow arrow is going in the right direction).





    Flow being displayed with the pump maxed at 100%





    There's no other plumbing going from the pump to the return line. And, the settings in the APEX dashboard are correct (it's plugged into port 1)





    So, going super conservative on my expectations of what the flow SHOULD be, at 100% (80 watts) the vectra should be pumping 1200+ GPH. This is a brand new pump, no flow restrictions.... so who's right? Or is something wrong with the flow sensor?

  2. #2
    Regular Vistor
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    22
    I think that is right. Another local reefer here has the GHL flow meters and measured his flow of his vectors L1 at high 600's. I personally feel their pumps are either very over rated or we are severely underestimating just how much head pressure we have on our systems.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #3
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    125
    Just seems strange with my calculated head pressure of 7 ft, according to ecotech's graph, it should still be 1200 GPH.



    This is saying it's not even half of that lol.

  4. #4
    Regular Vistor
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    22

    FMM Fluid sensor doubts

    Well then that goes more towards the other end of my point being that they're overstating the pumps capabilities.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    125
    Yeah, not sure. I mean, water is pounding out of my return.... if it "was" in the high 400's.... red sea suggests a 1200 GPH flow rate for this REEFER 450. There's no possible way that would be reasonable then.

  6. #6
    Regular Vistor
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    22

    FMM Fluid sensor doubts

    I hear your argument. I do think there is something to the fact that now I have seen 2 examples of disappointing flow results across 2 different platforms. It would be one thing is both users were on the same controller platform.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    125
    So, I used 2 different Ecotech Vectra M1's and 2 different 1" flow meters and the same exact results. So, I'm leaning towards the vectra M1 is extremely falsely advertised.

  8. #8
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    California - US Pacific
    Posts
    22,466
    Make sure your Apex firmware is up to date, and then check the FMM software version. If it says OLD, update it.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  9. #9
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    125
    It's good 😀

  10. #10
    Frequent Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gilroy, CA
    Posts
    1,043
    You should know that the stock flow numbers for all pumps are taken in the best possible situation. If you are running that pump with the included fitting and 3/4" plumbing, you are already not doing that. If you instead ran the 1.25" union on top of it, and 1.25" plumbing and then a 2" flow sensor, you would see much better results. Also, don't forget, if you have 1/2" or even 3/4" loc-line, that is restrictive as well.

  11. #11
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    125
    Agreed. Well, for this pump its a 3/4" output. So, thats why I used 3/4" pipe with the 1" flow sensor. With everything disconnected and no head pressure the pump at the highest speed was around 795 GPH. Still way lower than what they advertise... regardless, I now have more faith in the flow sensor than the pump 😀

  12. #12
    Frequent Contributor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Gilroy, CA
    Posts
    1,043
    The 3/4" fitting supplied is restrictive. Just look at the inside diameter of the output of the pump with out the fitting on. Now look at the inside diameter of the fitting.

    If instead you used their optional 1.25" adapter (We will actually ship a 1.25" union with the COR) on the outside threads, and 1.25" PVC direct to our 2" sensor with 1.25" bushings in it, then you will get very close to factory numbers. I do think that it is a bit disingenuous to ship a pump rated for a certain amount, but you are not able to do that flow rate with what is in provided in the box.

  13. #13
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA
    Posts
    125
    Quote Originally Posted by Terence View Post
    The 3/4" fitting supplied is restrictive. Just look at the inside diameter of the output of the pump with out the fitting on. Now look at the inside diameter of the fitting.

    If instead you used their optional 1.25" adapter (We will actually ship a 1.25" union with the COR) on the outside threads, and 1.25" PVC direct to our 2" sensor with 1.25" bushings in it, then you will get very close to factory numbers. I do think that it is a bit disingenuous to ship a pump rated for a certain amount, but you are not able to do that flow rate with what is in provided in the box.
    Ahhh makes sense now. Didn't even know they had other fittings for this thing. Thanks for the additional info

  14. #14
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    72
    haha, this type of experience is the same thing many of us had when first installing FMK.

    my flow was also around 470-490. I removed locline, and upgraded to 1" pipe for return, then i got 590gph. I'll take it. Still far cry from the 1585gph my pump is rated, surely thought i'd get 1000gph after head, but not even close.

  15. #15
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    US, Central Time
    Posts
    106
    I'm just thankful that we can now see this information, and make adjustments to our systems to get it closer to what we expect. I'm going to redo my plumbing when the COR is finally released. but I'm happy with my Varios 8 which I upgraded to after seeing the varios 6 struggle to deliver what I wanted for flow in my tank.

  16. #16
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    72
    lol if i had a varios 8 i doubt i'd want to upgrade to a cor that quickly - they already have apex support don't they? i went with a waveline dc6000 which has buggy-as-hell apex support

  17. #17
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Dubai
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by Xero View Post
    lol if i had a varios 8 i doubt i'd want to upgrade to a cor that quickly - they already have apex support don't they? i went with a waveline dc6000 which has buggy-as-hell apex support
    I am very very happy with the VarioS. It has been flawless so far and is under Apex control. I use different flow rates during the day and it works just like you thought it would!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    72
    Good to know. If my dc6000 died and the COR wasn't out - i'd probably be getting one of those. I'm still waiting for the COR though. I bet it'll outperform my DC6000 which definitely has it's performance overrated.


    Though the reality is, I don't really need to adjust the rate during the day - my pump is driving a manifold and it really needs to be running at full speed all the time. However, it's nice not to waste an EB832 outlet - if you can control via 0-10v, you don't need to plug into the powerbar.

  19. #19
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Dubai
    Posts
    71
    I set the VarioS to run at 80% all the time. It runs through a non-return valve and into a manifold.

    When the skimmer is full or the auto top off tank is low I drop flow to 50%. This lower flow causes the Red Sea Reefer overflow to gargle loudly and it's an easy way to get someone's attention especially when I am away!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    13,176
    You did the head calculation wrong. I get about 13 feet of head using the following assumptions.

    Vertical height 4ft
    Total length 8ft
    3 90 bends below
    Splitters and locline equivalent to two more 90s
    FMM loss equivalent to 2 unions and a swing check valve.


    That would bring you around 600 gph based on the M1 pump curve without taking into account the reducer at the pump output and the effect of turbulence.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

  21. #21
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    72
    i gave up on the check valves - seen them fail too much, i now try to use hard-plumb-pvc with a pvc-return nozzle (NOT locline) set at proper height and mounted sturdily so it can't move, this works 100% of the time compared to the valves

    ehhh, i still wouldn't want to drop my flow, could mess with my reactor and my UV, and on top of that my tank is running a herbie and it would probably cause the water level to drop significantly in my corner overflow, as well as cause the sump to rise in height. Yeah, I guess that'd be loud. Although I just run the apex display module so it can sound an alarm, I don't need it gurgling heh. I've also used the 24v ports to sound a buzzer before...my leak sensor on my 120g is setup to sound a loud 24v buzzer haha.

  22. #22
    Frequent Visitor DarthSimon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    North East
    Posts
    351
    Very Interesting. I just installed a Flow Meter on my System. Using a 1000 GPH Rated Pump.
    Setup is Reefer 250 Red Sea. Getting 180-190 GPH 100% power on Pump on..... Fittings are all 1/2 Inch.

  23. #23
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    72
    1000gph in 1/2? That's your problem right there. Try upsizing that to 1" and you maybe will see closer to 600-700gph....

  24. #24
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Near Seattle
    Posts
    940
    I know 3 people who installed the FMM flow meters into their systems. Every single one of them was disappointed with the results. I don't think I need to know mine now. Let's just assume that all flow rates are considerably less than the best case scenarios printed on the pump boxes. Still, it wouldn't hurt to get larger fittings.

  25. #25
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    72
    it really makes a huge difference though.

    if you seriously thought you were getting anywhere near 1000gph with a 1000gph rated pump through 1/2 or 3/4, you got another thing coming. Head alone is gonna take anywhere from 1/3 to 1/4 and undersized plumbing will further cut that into nothing.

    Even with a mag 9.5, which has 3/4 fittings on the pump itself, and is more of a pressure-rated pump than most pumps, 1/2 is still not gonna be great, 3/4 would be marginal, and 1" or 1.25" is going to be ideal for an expectation of anything remotely close to 1000gph. And realistically, you'd want a pump almost twice that size to actually achieve 1000gph. On a flow-type pump though, forget it, 1/2 is gonna destroy it, that's like most DC pumps for example, they're mediocre at pressure but can turn some high flow if you use nice big pipe. If you want to flow 500-1000gph you need to be using at least 1" pipe.

    You really can't go too big, but you CAN go too small. All the FMM has done is shown that on average, most people HAVE gone too small, and aren't really using the power of their pumps very efficiently.

    If you size the plumbing correctly, you can likely use a smaller pump, or turn the power down on a larger DC pump. And if you're building a manifold, it should be huge, and then all the outlets off it can be reduced down as needed, reducer tees are nice for creating such a manifold. Some people think that there's some imaginary "water weight" when using larger pipes, that somehow all this extra weight of the water in the pipe is somehow going to reduce the flow, but this is total nonsense, and isn't really how pumps work, the reduced friction of larger pipe ultimately makes for much better flow. I feel like 1" is pretty much the smallest i'll go now on all my return pumps. Even on my 29g" i used 1" for a manifold, heh.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Fluid Monitoring Sensor Size
    By SPR1968 in forum Fluid Monitoring Module (FMM), FMK, ATK, LDK, and FMM Accessories
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-16-2019, 07:25
  2. Fluid Monitoring Module - FMM
    By don arndt in forum Fluid Monitoring Module (FMM), FMK, ATK, LDK, and FMM Accessories
    Replies: 232
    Last Post: 06-02-2017, 22:24
  3. DOS Accessory Fluid level sensor Availability?
    By darbronnoco in forum DŌS & DDR – Dosing and Fluid Metering System
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-27-2015, 16:27
  4. Fluid Level tracking without sensor
    By msderganc in forum DŌS & DDR – Dosing and Fluid Metering System
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-13-2015, 04:09

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •