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Thread: New DOS air in lines

  1. #1
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    New DOS air in lines

    I know what most will think, here we go again with another person that won't read.
    i assure you I've spent a few nights reading every available post about this issue in every page of this sub forum.

    new out the box DOS unit, using factory supplied tubing connected to the DDR.
    read all available get started information a few times as well.

    my unit is mounted to the side wall of my cabinet almost level with my sump. DDR sits directly below the DOS. Lines run from the out to my ice cap sump about 3 1/2 feet of tubing and held in place by factory tube holder on sump.

    installed tubing, ensured tubing was all the way into the John guest fittings on the DDR with flat cuts from tube cutting tool.
    tubes are all the way pressed onto the DOS fittings and the compression nuts are silly tight on all four lines.

    problem number one I experienced was with the left or number 1 pump upon priming. It seemed to pull liquid up about 8" and would not continue toward the pump head amd slowly bleed back down.
    I eventually help the button long enough to get fluid up and around the rollers and all air out the line.
    fusion showed over 280 ml dosed during this process with pump one.

    pump two / right pump absolutely no issue and primed silly quick as it should have.

    after priming I did do the manual set up and calibration process
    one pump showed 40 ml and two pump showed 39.4 ml.
    completed process and programmed.

    after programming the pumps I decided to take a gander at this new piece of equipment in action so I sat by the open stand and waited.
    this was about 2 hours after initial set up and programming.
    flashlight in hand I noticed air bubbles / gaps in the out line to sump for pump one.
    checked all the fittings again, jogged priming/ manual button to remove all air once again.
    pump worked by dosing tiny amounts.
    went to sleep.

    next morning tested my DKH and noticed a drop in level as if the pump didn't dose.
    checked fusion and pump one kept pace with pump two for equal amounts dosed.
    checked the DDR and calcium in chamber 2 was lower than chamber one with Alk solution.
    found air gaps in the pump one line to sump again.
    pump one turned on and one drop came out as the pump continued and nothing else.
    primed line again.
    checked a few hours later and same process.

    Frustrated and tired eyed from all the reading of similar issues along with recommendations/ solutions I decided to get a little wire management done and keep an eye on the line for air entry.

    what I found is that the end of the tube seems to develop an air pocket eventually getting large enough at the end of the tube that nothing comes out when the pump tries to dose 0.7 to 1 ml.

    this isn't what I expected out of a $450 piece of equipment and had to install my bubble Magnus back on the tank to keep my levels from swinging in my sps reef.

    are there any issues known you guys are familiar with that would cause this ?
    i could see it if my tubing was vertical but it's only vertical for a couple inches bending into the sump.

    should I remove the pump head and look at some common areas known for cracks or weakness ?
    or just open a support ticket with Neptune and hope I get a response.

    thanks for your time
    good luck and happy reefing
    bluewaterLa / Mike

  2. #2
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    After a few weeks of dealing with this issue and getting zero response I decided to add some check valves to the dos lines in attempt to find the source of the leak or solve this issue.

  3. #3
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    More than likely the tubing is not seated high enough on the barbed fitting. Rule of thumb, If you aren't cursing at the DOS cause you're giving it all you got and it won't wiggle further, the tube isn't high enough on the fitting.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluewaterLa View Post
    After a few weeks of dealing with this issue and getting zero response I decided to add some check valves to the dos lines in attempt to find the source of the leak or solve this issue.

    Where did you get the check valves

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    More than likely the tubing is not seated high enough on the barbed fitting. Rule of thumb, If you aren't cursing at the DOS cause you're giving it all you got and it won't wiggle further, the tube isn't high enough on the fitting.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.
    Thanks for the response Zombie, maybe I will try to cuss at it some more hahaha
    Seriously I will check that possibility one more time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MIReefer View Post
    Where did you get the check valves
    I got them from Coral Vue.
    They come in two different sizes for tubing of this size.
    Are you in need of some ?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluewaterLa View Post
    Thanks for the response Zombie, maybe I will try to cuss at it some more hahaha
    Seriously I will check that possibility one more time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I got them from Coral Vue.
    They come in two different sizes for tubing of this size.
    Are you in need of some ?
    Just got the DOS. Thought about maybe picking some up in case I have any problems

  7. #7
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    Ok the bottom line is the check valves did not solve any issue with air bubbles in the lines.
    Continued to look for answers I noticed late one evening after filling up both sides of the DDR if I bumped the lines from the DDR to the DOS inlet an air bubble would rise up in the tube.
    I figured a loose connection/ seal was the issue so I once again cut the line ensuring the make a fresh flat cut with tubing cutters. Upon inserting the tubing into the jon guest fitting I pushed so hard that I began cussing in 17 different languages. Installed the RODI blue lock tabs to help keep the lines tight and stable.
    This seemed to work better and I got less air trapped into the dose line on pump one.
    Well that time came around again for me to refill both sides and upon closer look I had roughly 300 ml more in the pump one side of the DDR compared to the lower pump 2 side.
    I pushed the button on the DOS to jog the air our and seen that the pick up line was empty of fluid. Continued to prime the line and stopped right before the pump to watch the fluid rush back into the DDR.

    So I refilled the reservoir and primed it again to almost the bottom of the pump intake and it held, did not wait long to see if it would continue just primed the line back up to get the air out.
    Has anyone taken the jon guest fittings and hard tube out / off of the DDR to replace them. I am not wanting to just rip them out and create more damage so I am asking if there is a certain way they are installed or if the fittings just thread into the DDR housing.
    I need to get this repaired.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluewaterLa View Post
    or just open a support ticket with Neptune and hope I get a response.

    thanks for your time
    good luck and happy reefing
    bluewaterLa / Mike
    Did you open a Support ticket for this issue?
    https://www.neptunesystems.com/support/contact-support/
    Jon

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonmos75 View Post
    Did you open a Support ticket for this issue?
    https://www.neptunesystems.com/support/contact-support/
    sure did, I called support and actually got someone on the phone first try. We spoke about some other questions I had and when it came to problems I was told there was a ticket submitted and someone would follow up on my problems.
    No phone call, NO text and no email from support there after. LFS where I purchesed all this equipment from contacted his rep and was told that they have it in their system as solved after contacting me which Is not what happened.

  10. #10
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    Have you tried to change the heads from one motor to the other to see if the problem follows the head?

  11. #11
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    update to this issue I am having.
    Thanks to Jon M for reaching out and taking a look into my forgotten matter. It seems as there was a mistake in the spelling of my last name and email address so that was an issue for Neptune support to get hold of me.
    Lesson learned that even though we can get someone on the phone for support questions, when it comes down to information it is best to open the ticket yourself so that no spelling errors can occur of be minimized.

    I am in contact with support and it seems that my issues with the DDR may be getting resolved in a relatively fast manner.
    As soon as parts arrive and I get them installed I will update this thread on the resolve or next step / direction to get this matter taken care of.

  12. #12
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    IMO, these RODI type fittings on the DDR are ill-suited for use in this situation. Sure, they're easy to connect and disconnect, and waterproof, but they're not 100% airtight at all times, and even a tiny momentary leak will allow a sizable bubble into the line. Barbed fittings with properly sized tubing is better I think. Anyway, you can solve the problem by doing what I did, applying a ring of clear silicone caulk around the fitting. Now my DDR is airtight, no bubbles rising from it, yet easily removed when you need to disconnect.

    Regarding the tubing connections onto the DOS pump heads - I agree, you really need to get them on there tight. And then get the nuts on there tight. And then retighten the nuts a couple of days later because they will definitely need it. And then retighten those nuts again a week later and every so often thereafter.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    IMO, these RODI type fittings on the DDR are ill-suited for use in this situation. Sure, they're easy to connect and disconnect, and waterproof, but they're not 100% airtight at all times, and even a tiny momentary leak will allow a sizable bubble into the line. Barbed fittings with properly sized tubing is better I think. Anyway, you can solve the problem by doing what I did, applying a ring of clear silicone caulk around the fitting. Now my DDR is airtight, no bubbles rising from it, yet easily removed when you need to disconnect.

    Regarding the tubing connections onto the DOS pump heads - I agree, you really need to get them on there tight. And then get the nuts on there tight. And then retighten the nuts a couple of days later because they will definitely need it. And then retighten those nuts again a week later and every so often thereafter.
    Around the fitting you say ?
    On what end are you talking about ? Is it the end where the tubing goes into the DDR jon guest fitting or under the fitting where the acrylic tube is inserted into the fitting ?

  14. #14
    Frequent Contributor iamchadster's Avatar
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    I strongly suggest just letting NS take care of you from here. This issue occurs more than NS probably likes but it's still rare. Don't glue/grease/silicone/modify etc, anything until you let tech support help you out. That whole void warranty thing will cost you a lot more in the end. They will fix you up and get you a working unit I assure you.
    Chad

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamchadster View Post
    I strongly suggest just letting NS take care of you from here. This issue occurs more than NS probably likes but it's still rare. Don't glue/grease/silicone/modify etc, anything until you let tech support help you out. That whole void warranty thing will cost you a lot more in the end. They will fix you up and get you a working unit I assure you.
    I understand your message and thank you for the concern.
    I have no intention to modify my equipment in any such manner unless all hope is lost of getting the issue corrected.
    From my stand point, experience in this hobby and what I do for a living leads me to believe that there is an issue with the way the acrylic tube was glued to the under side of the jon guest fitting on some of the DDR containers and this is more the issue with the air getting into the lines.

    I also understand that when products hit the scale of mass production sometimes issues can and will arise with said product. I am currently in a waiting mode and getting the information requested by NS so the replacement parts can be mailed out to me.
    The only thing I was curious about is if the OP above was meaning to seal the tube under the fitting or if he was saying to try and seal the top of the fitting where the Oring is supposed to seal on the soft tubing.
    I would never recommend using silicone on a Jon guest fitting in this manner as they are cheap enough to replace.

  16. #16
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Yes, Blue, my DDR was in fact leaking air from the jon guest fittings despite the lines being squarely cut, pushed all the way in, rings elevated and lockers placed. Still leaked air. Yes, I did apply silicone caulk to the fittings, quite a lot of it actually, and yes it did stop the air leak. When dry, the silicone caulk can be completely peeled off the fitting with no residue, if you need to change lines. There's no way doing this will ever void your warranty, that's just alarmist talk. So, you can try this and see if it works, or you can deal with bubbles in your line and inconsistent dosing for a couple more months while neptune gets around to maybe sending you a new one that maybe won't also leak.

    Also, Chad, I'm pretty sure it isn't a rare issue at all, from the number of times I've seen this issue mentioned, and from people I've talked to. It's a DDR design flaw. The jon guest fittings, even new ones, aren't airtight when suction is applied to the line, as here. It's very different than an RODI setup where the line is under pressure, not suction.

  17. #17
    Frequent Contributor iamchadster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    Yes, Blue, my DDR was in fact leaking air from the jon guest fittings despite the lines being squarely cut, pushed all the way in, rings elevated and lockers placed. Still leaked air. Yes, I did apply silicone caulk to the fittings, quite a lot of it actually, and yes it did stop the air leak. When dry, the silicone caulk can be completely peeled off the fitting with no residue, if you need to change lines. There's no way doing this will ever void your warranty, that's just alarmist talk. So, you can try this and see if it works, or you can deal with bubbles in your line and inconsistent dosing for a couple more months while neptune gets around to maybe sending you a new one that maybe won't also leak.

    Also, Chad, I'm pretty sure it isn't a rare issue at all, from the number of times I've seen this issue mentioned, and from people I've talked to. It's a DDR design flaw. The jon guest fittings, even new ones, aren't airtight when suction is applied to the line, as here. It's very different than an RODI setup where the line is under pressure, not suction.
    Based on how many DDR units are operating successfully which you don't hear about I would still consider it a pretty rare event. But we can agree to disagree.
    Chad

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    When you add code to the apex through the IP address, does that mess up the code you put in the apexfusion page?
    should I delete the data in the IP address?
    This is for auto water changes.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshump67 View Post
    When you add code to the apex through the IP address, does that mess up the code you put in the apexfusion page?
    should I delete the data in the IP address?
    This is for auto water changes.
    Fusion pulls whatever code is currently on your apex. Where you add it makes no difference. Don't delete anything unless your goal is to start from scratch on that device.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  20. #20
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    But if you put code on apex through IP
    And you also put code on apex fusion.
    Which is current

  21. #21
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshump67 View Post
    But if you put code on apex through IP
    And you also put code on apex fusion.
    Which is current
    Apex Fusion does not store or execute programming - it is a user interface. All programming is stored and executed in the Apex. When you change something via Apex Fusion, that change is sent to the Apex.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  22. #22
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tshump67 View Post
    But if you put code on apex through IP
    And you also put code on apex fusion.
    Which is current
    Whatever you did last.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

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