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Thread: Dynamic Programming Setpoints, even possible? Need I Dare someone to explain how to do this?

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    Dynamic Programming Setpoints, even possible? Need I Dare someone to explain how to do this?

    Hey everybody,
    I gotta just go ahead and say it first, I am so far beyond blown away by the capabilities of this system to dial your environment in like nothing else out there. Then there are all of you folks who seem incredibly helpful and genuinely concerned about others being able to enjoy the same benefits of the system despite a possible lack of understanding.
    Nuff chatting. . . I have a very unique situation on my hands, while 99% of the individuals on here are all speaking the same language related to the maintenance of an aquarium setup . . .my application for the Apex system is just slightly different lets say. I am a fairly serious hydroponics hobbyist and I recently moved towards establishing a new growing system that is outfitted with a degree of automation and precision control unlike anything ever seen before absent a 24/7 human staff.


    A bit about the system and my objectives....I have the regular Apex system complete with the PM2 expansion mod and conductivity probe, my number one goal, is to be able to establish a set of parameters for several aquatic measurements which the system will then be capable of continuously monitoring and making necessary adjustments in order to maintain that "ideal" environment as defined by my specified set of measurement variables.


    The basic programming I am seemingly faced with is pretty plain vanilla....If temp creeps up, a pump kicks on my wort-style chiller connected to a 1.5HP water chiller, or if the PH starts to rise then I have a peristaltic pump feeding from a tank of PH down solution and dosing it into the system. I hope to employ even a bit of fanciness by using the features that allow you to specify an exact time period during which the system will not act on whatever trigger it may encounter (allowing the dosing solutions a little time to evenly disperse throughout the ehole system and avoiding a false reading and eventual over dosing) I am 99% sure that I am going to be able to figure this out....but here is the real kicker....


    In order to REALLY step it up to another level, there is an element of gradual progression in most of the controlled metrics I seek to control. For instance, lets say that instead of assuming that my programs are aimed at a perpetual environment or even a perpetually cycliclical environment, I am working with a 10 week period over which the values of each "Ideal" metric changes slightly. (ex. water temp begins week 1 at 68 and gradually falls to 64 over 9 weeks and drops to 60 for the last 4 days, or the same goes for the conductivity levels or PH of water . . .you catch my drift here? Is there a way by which I might be able to program the whole enchilada so that this kind of trend is able to be followed AND THEN STARTED OVER FROM THE TOP OF THE CYCLE without having to re-program the whole thing once a week or even once every 10 weeks? I would love to hear what the true masters of environmental control have to say on this one....to the extent that someone might be capable of walking me through what I need to do, I would be happy to compensate for the time, effort or simply remain eternally greatful!


    Really sorry about the novel
    Thanks!!!!
    JR

  2. #2
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Dosing and failsafes is no problem whatsoever. Give us some more info on water volume, amount needed to lower ph by x and ml rate of your pump and I can help you optimize it.

    The "seasonal" variations would be a little more tricky. You can use the season table to accomplish that and use the RT+ and Sun commands, but unless your cycle is exactly a certain amount of time (which I doubt) you will need to fill out the season table at the start of every cycle.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life, and you can PROVE it mathematically.

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    Thanks a lot Zombie,
    so as far as some specific details go, let me lay out the primary variables I would like to gain control over via the system.....


    First is temp of the water (the ambient temp and relative humidity levels are monitored are adjusted via the use of a environmental controller, using the same concept)....the water levels should be maintained at no greater than 68 deg F.....more specifically over the course of a standard 9.5 week cycle, the temp is supposed to very slowly decrease based on a specific week by week target level. It essentially a 1 deg drop per 2 weeks or so followed by a slightly more drastic drop heading into the final 3-4 days. The temp is controlled via the use of a closed loop prop-glycol based cooling system which includes a 1.5HP chiller and a 55gal drum of glycol. The Apex should monitor the water temp and upon reading a slight increase in the temperature (which is constantly the trend due to the use of a fairly large submersible pump which circulates everything and the associated heat it gives off) one outlet will kick on another external water pump which pulls coolant from the glycol reservoir, and circulates it through a line system which includes a 15 foot copper coil placed in what is known as the "epicenter" of this multi bucket hydroponic setup (I can provide more detail on how the system works if it would help, but essentially it is a series of interconnected 13 gallon buckets over which an 8" net pot is suspended holding a sterile ceramic rooting medium, and our happy plants. The roots are allowed to grow unrestricted down into the bucket becoming completely submerged in the nutrient solution, which is made possible by maintaining a hyper-aerobic environment via the use of an individual air stone diffuser and some heavy duty air pumping power to power all 18 stones). By maintaining a glycol reservoir at a temperature materially cooler than the targeted 68 deg, the wort chiller should not necessarily need to run 24/7 especially given the size of the pump driving the glycol through the lines. (A separate pump and glycol line sourced from the same reservoir is used to pump coolant through a liquid cooled CO2 generator with an internal heat exchanger that burns liquid propane in order to maintain a CO2 enriched environment measured by a "sniffer" which records the ambient CO2 concentrations as part of tje otjer environmental controller) which explains the need for that much cooling power). So that does it for my temp.


    PH levels - All of these variables follow the same 9.5 week cycle time, and the specific stage of the plants life at any given week determines the individual values which we are targeting. Same concept as above, the PH probe will monitor the solution in the system and if the water creeps above a base value of approximately 6.1 or so, an outlet is to fire up for a short period of time, allowing the peristalic pump to inject a dose of concentrated acidic solution. I suppose that it may be possible to calculate the precise magnitude of a sustem PH reduction necessary to re-establish the target level, you're probably thinking it will make sense to calculate the precise amount of acidic solution that sshould be added to get the job done....unfortunately however, unfortunately its not quite that simple. The main reason why is because the exact strength of the PH Down solution being used is unknown because I dilute the hell out of it in order to avoid overshooting the landing so to speak...and also to make sure that the sensitive plant root systems dont abruptly get bombarded by an excessively acidic environment immediately following a dose. Therefore, what I plan to do is, in addition to using a much milder concentration of ph solution, I want to dose the system using baby steps in order to allow each sequential dosing to fully mix throughout the system before another measurement is allowed to triger a second dose. the whole system of 18 buckets and the 3" PVC connecting them all amounts to an aggregate system volume of just under 240 gallons, at 1200 GPH, the entire volume of water is effectively cycled completely through the system from beginning to end about 6.5x per hour. So my thought was to allow an initial small dose to occur, then delay further adjustment for at least 30 minutes in order for the solution to adequately mix in, then a second dose, if needed based in the recorded measurement taken 30 minutes after the first, can be added followed by another 30 minute mixing period, before a third dose may be added if necessary, this can continue as Long as it is necessary in order to reach our ideal PH level, and under this approach, the probability of shocking any of the plants by an excessive acidity burst after dosing is pretty much nil. The rate at which the pump adds additional solution is 300ml/min, so depending on how much I dilute the mix, it should not require all that long of a power burst.


    Next is the targeted value for Electric Conductivity (EC)...just like the temp and PH, I will be using the conductivity probe to monitor and adjust the real-time EC levels of the solution....this will follow an almost identical strategy as the PH, as the adjustments are to be made using an identical pump size only with a different feedstock being added to the system. The EC target levels follow a significantly more dynamic schedule starting off moderate at the onset of the plant's blooming phase, then ramping significantly as they grow like mad and crave the additional chow while getting bigger, and also, to the extent that I have successfully designed an environment which is capable of maintaining more or less a perfectly dialed enviroment....the amount of food, or target EC levels, can be juiced up by as much as 25% because under the type of conditions I hope to sustain, these things should grow like crazy, allowing higher nutrient consumption. Of note is the constant forces which are likel to put downward pressure on the EC levels, such as natural consumption of nutes by the plants, as well as dilution as the adult plants slurp down a ****load of water each day which is then replaced via a seperate top-off reservoir controlled by a float valve that will add more RO water stored in a seperate tank. I was pretty astonished to learn that at full size, this kind of system is vey capable of losing upwards of 50 gallons a day, as the now monster plants are busy sucking up loads of water and transpiring it into the air in the room....this is the reason behind a large top-off tank which I intend to recycle a portion of the water through by collecting the condensation created by the dehumidifier and the AC system....the one thing I wish I could do was convert the EC display mode so that it read these values as pArts per million (PPM) only because I am far more familiar with this scale, I will figure out a conversion factor and simply note it near he display module for my own reference


    so there ya have it more or less....I would have supplied the exact weekly target levels I want to use however it would have been a ****show trying to type it into this tiny phone screen. If you are serious about truly walking through the appropriate programming commands Zombie, (for which I could not thank you enough for being so generous) ten I do have a very clear table which organizes all of the individual parameters and the progression that they follow each week. Actually, I remembered that there is a version of the table available online, I'll post a link to it shortly.


    Again, I gotta thank you for taking the time to lend a helping hand, I realize that there may be some individuals who may not care for the application that I have my Apex running for, but to each's own, you may like fish and coral, I really enjoy my home grown herbs, veggies & Flowers!!!!

  4. #4
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    First for the ph down dosing. You can start with this code and modify the on time (middle section in the osc) until you hit a level that meets the demand but doesnt overshoot. Since I have no idea how much you typically consume, I will just put 1 min every half hour as a starting point. Other failsafes can be added later once you tweak this to fit your system.

    PH_Pump
    Fallback OFF
    OSC 000:00/001:00/029:00 Then ON
    If pH < 6.1 Then OFF


    The conductivity part is gonna be a lot harder to do considering you are so low on the ppm compared to saltwater. I am assumming you will be running in the 800-1200 ppm range. Apex can display in ppt so you would be targeting .8 to 1.2. Since this is such a small range, you are gonna need to figure out a typical consumption and I can help you adjust the osc statement below to be just a little higher.

    Nute_Pump
    Fallback OFF
    OSC 000:00/000:30/029:30 Then ON
    If Cond > 1.0 Then OFF


    Temp is the easy one, but will have to be manually changed weekly just like the other two. Replace the quantities in parenthesis where X is your desired temp

    Chiller
    Fallback OFF
    If temp > (X) Then ON
    If temp < (X - 0.5) Then OFF

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life, and you can PROVE it mathematically.

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    http://www.cch2o.com/resources/CCH2O...endations1.pdf

    Weekly Environmental Parameters
    Week Week 1 Week 2 Week 3 Week 4 Week 5 Week 6 Week 7 Week 8 Week 9 Week 10 Flush
    Developmental Stage Flower Set/Formation Flower Stacking Flower Ripening Final Ripening 2-4 days
    Ambient Environment
    Temperature
    Day 80 Deg F 78 Deg F 76 Deg F 76 Deg F 74 Deg F 73 Deg F 73 Deg F 72 Deg F 72 Deg F 70 Deg F 64 Deg F
    Night 68 Deg F 66 Deg F 64 Deg F 64 Deg F 62 Deg F 61 Deg F 61 Deg F 60 Deg F 60 Deg F 60 Deg F 60 Deg F
    Relative Humidity
    Day 60% 55% 55% 55% 50% 50% 45% 40% 40% 30% 25%
    Night 45% 40% 40% 40% 35% 35% 35% 35% 30% 20% 10%
    CO2 Concentration 1400 1300 1200 1100 1000 900 800 700 600 300 300
    Aquatic Environment
    PH Level 6.0 6.0 5.9 5.9 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.8 5.7 5.7
    Electronic Conductivity (PPM) 1.0 1.2 1.5 1.9 2.0 2.0 1.9 1.5 1.2 1.0 0.1
    Water Temp 68 Deg F 68 Deg F 68 Deg F 68 Deg F 68 Deg F 68 Deg F 67 Deg F 66 Deg F 65 Deg F 62 Deg F 60 Deg F

  6. #6
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Start with what I wrote up. Once you get me typical demands (ml per day or per week) I can help you optimize the osc statements and these could change for each week of the cycle. Keep good data, and within a few cycles it should be refined well. You are gonna need to manually adjust the pH, conductivity, and temp values each week to the values listed in the tables.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life, and you can PROVE it mathematically.

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    Wow . . . so basically if I want to follow the displayed parameters to a tee, then I am going to need to update my programming weekly?? Well then, if that is the case, and I eventually figure out the whole remote wireless access thing, then I will simply have to take ten minutes at my office once a week and just do the damn thing . . . Im sure that once I am much more familiar with the syntax of the programming language, this will essentially be a 5 minute task. No sweat, a couple more quick ones should put me on the right path, First, As I successfully enter each weekly combination of outlet programming commands is there a way by which I am able to simply save the current configuration of all outlets (ie "Week One", "week 2" etc etc etc) so that all I will have to do is run through the actual programming once, be sure to save things as I go, and then during the next cycle I can just call up the exact same programming specifications as the last? that would be sweet.

    And I guess one more thing....you mentioned that the display can be adjusted to show conductivity in PPR instead of EC . . . . You are exactly correct, the peak concentration I will ever use is probably around 1500 and maybe a bit higher in the event that everything all falls into place and these plants begin to perform like mutant "little shop of horrors" like monsters . . .then I will likely juice them accordingly. Did you mean to type PPM or is your acronym slightly different? Cant I change the mode so that the sensitivity of the EC is changed (like one for salt water, one for fresh water, and one for even more subtle salinity? I'd imagine that by changing to one of the fresh water measurement levels as well as switching to the alternative mode other than the regular "EC" reading, I will be IN THERE LIKE SWIMWEAR"!!!!

    Zombie . . . this entire project is about to experience blastoff after a 9 month pause while I performed an astonishingly complete overhaul of my system . . .Im talking from the roof of my building, to the drywall, and each and every single little component of the actual growing environment and system that you could possibly imagine....I am overwhelmed on a daily basis as I am finally beginning to see it about done in its amazing entirety. this part was the single thing I had doubts on and was really fearful of screwing up. Bottom line . . . . I cannot express my gratitude enough, I owe you bigtime my friend. If you are interested in seeing some photos of the entire configuration and how it all works together (including the custom mounting of the Apex in a plexi-glass protected, wood stained control box) just say the word....its something I am really proud of, and I wouldn't be on schedule without your help!!!!!

    THANK YOU SO DAMN MUCH!!!

  8. #8
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    You can save configurations and restore them. I dont remember the exact sequence off the top of my head, but its pretty straoght forward. The users manual has a section on it.

    When I put ppt I meant parts per thousand. Just divide your ppm requirement by 1000 for what it should be in the apex. Ie 1200 ppm = 1.2 ppt. You can adjust whether its in ms/cm or ppt in the probe setup page of the dashboard.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life, and you can PROVE it mathematically.

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    hey JR,
    I'm doing the same thing... working out programing issues on here is kinda a joke!

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    Hey JR - came across your thread about using the Apex for hydroponics, and wondering how it worked out for you? I'm thinking about doing something similar, but probably not as advanced as your setup (just a lettuce/greens wall, so no real need for the dynamic 10-week nutrient progression changes). Specifically, I'm wondering how using the Apex conductivity and pH probes worked out, and if you just leave them in the nutrient solution for continuous monitoring? Most of the probes for hydroponics I'm finding out are not meant to be left in the solution, but rather just for spot monitoring - but obviously continuous monitoring is more ideal, especially if dosing to keep parameters in line. I'll probably start out with monitoring, and maybe add in some dosing pumps for pH and PPM nutrient control.

    Drop me a line if you get the chance with some advice! Thanks for the help : )

    Best, Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReefEco View Post
    Hey JR - came across your thread about using the Apex for hydroponics, and wondering how it worked out for you? I'm thinking about doing something similar, but probably not as advanced as your setup (just a lettuce/greens wall, so no real need for the dynamic 10-week nutrient progression changes). Specifically, I'm wondering how using the Apex conductivity and pH probes worked out, and if you just leave them in the nutrient solution for continuous monitoring? Most of the probes for hydroponics I'm finding out are not meant to be left in the solution, but rather just for spot monitoring - but obviously continuous monitoring is more ideal, especially if dosing to keep parameters in line. I'll probably start out with monitoring, and maybe add in some dosing pumps for pH and PPM nutrient control.

    Drop me a line if you get the chance with some advice! Thanks for the help : )

    Best, Peter
    These probes are designed to be kept in the reservoir. They will likely need to be cleaned and calibrated more often than in saltwater depending on what chems you use as some are more corrosive than salt (I would calibrate and lightly clean every or every other water change at least initially, and drop down to every bloom cycle if it seems to be holding). Apex is probably your best bet and has the added benefit of controlling your pumps, keeping an eye on water levels, auto top off of evaporation, etc. You can even control your lights if you get an external relay and have the apex trigger that.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

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    Thanks Zombie - appreciate the help. Yup, plan to control the whole hydro setup from the Apex, with a separate eb8 bar for control of lights, pump, heater, reservoir top off, light mover, etc. as well as a PM1 for temp and pH. I might do a portable EC type wand instead of an apex salinity probe, just because it is cheaper than another module and probe, and I have several nutrient reservoirs for which a portable unit will be useful (might go portable pH too...). Just picked up a 100' apex USB cable from USBfirewire.com to run from my main Apex (2016) running my reef tank. Thought about getting a separate hydro-specific monitor (like the Blue Lab guardian, etc) but realized it would be much simpler and more flexible to just run another eb8 and modules off my main Apex.

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