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Thread: Help! ATK problems!

  1. #1
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    Help! ATK problems!

    Help!


    I'm having some issues with a recently installed ATK.

    I programmed it via tasks and this is the output:

    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Swx5_1 OPEN Then ON
    If Swx5_2 CLOSED Then OFF
    When On > 005:00 Then OFF
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:04 Then OFF
    Min Time 060:00 Then OFF

    2 questions:

    1) From my interpretation (and what I've read), the last rule should provide a 60min interval between fillings. I've noticed while messing with the sump/return pump that it pumps RO water every time the level is below the low sensor and disregards the rule. I've read in other forums about a hole in the tubing that's suppose to provide some sort of auto-siphon capability, but I'm not too familiar. I'm curious if this could be the issue - the pump. not breaking siphon correctly. Anyone have any tips?

    2) Also, can someone please help me understand how I could program the ATK to only "work" during certain time intervals? My scenario is this: I want to run variable speeds on my return pump during the day which obviously changes the level of my sump and affects the ATK. I'd like the ATK to be enabled at 10PM and disabled at 10AM.

    Thank you!!!!

  2. #2
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    ATK Alarms

    As follow up, I've included a screenshot of my alarms page. My ATK is active several times within an hour. Again, with the above rule (Min Time 60:00 Then OFF), I thought it wasn't suppose to do this? Could someone please help?!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    That alarm log doesn't seem to match the programming above (switch names don't match, for one thing). Can you copy and paste your actual current ATK programming?

    The alarm you have set for the ATK_Hi sensor will go off any time the water level in the sump rises above the sensor, so it's not surprising it's happening in your situation. I would delete that alarm from your email notification programming. Also, what is the purpose of the 'If ATK_Lo OPEN Then OFF' command in the email alarm programming? It doesn't really do anything, I'd delete that too.

    Regarding possibly siphoning: Is the pump actually activating before the 60 minutes is up, or is the line dribbling? And, is your ATO reservoir at a higher water level than the ATO sensor device? You might or might not need an anti-siphon device or other siphon break.

    Regarding your second question, add the command If Time 10:00 to 22:00 Then OFF to keep your ATK from operating during the day. Although realize that, depending on your system, at 10 PM it might run for more than the 5 minutes allowed in the When On command, which would shut down the device until manually reactivated from the dashboard, and possibly sound an alarm.

  4. #4
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    Good Eye... I switch my switched names after i created that first post.

    Swx5_1 = Low Sensor
    Swx5_2 = High Sensor

    Here is my ATK programming:

    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If ATK_Lo OPEN Then ON
    If ATK_Hi CLOSED Then OFF
    When On > 005:00 Then OFF
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:04 Then OFF
    Min Time 060:00 Then OFF

    After additional troubleshooting, i believe the line is just dribbling, but sometimes quite a bit. I've confirmed the pump is not coming on. The ATO reservoir is at the same height as my sump in the lower portion of the cabinet/stand.

    In regards to my alarms, here is what i have now:

    Set OFF
    If Error Free Then ON
    If ATK_Lo OPEN Then OFF
    If Output Return_Pump = OFF Then ON
    If Error ATK Then ON
    If ATK_Hi CLOSED Then ON

    I'm going to take your advice and delete ATK_HI and ATK_Lo. Any other suggestions? What should i have in my email alarms in regards to my ATK?

    Thank you!

  5. #5
    NSI Member eschulist's Avatar
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    If the pump is shutting off and not coming on quickly then your programming is working correctly.

    All of those ATK_Hi Closed Then ON alarms mean you have a siphon issue.

    You need to install the siphon break fitting at the top of your reservoir otherwise you will suck out all the water out of your reservoir until it equalizes with the sumps water level. This will stop the excessive dribbling. Anything after the fitting will still drain out after each top off though, so dont be alarmed if some still drips out after the pump shuts off.

    Keep the ATK_HI alarm to alert you of issues with the ATK in the future. Like if the siphon break fitting where to get clogged or bottom sensor became dirty and didn't tell the PMUP to turn off.
    I'd remove the Lo then OFF as its redundant, the Alarm is set OFF by default. Your Return_Pump = OFF alarm may be annoying if you turn your pump off for feeding and maintenance.

  6. #6
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    OK, well you may have some siphoning going on. You should have the anti-siphon device that came with the ATK. If not then you're SOL (No seriously, maybe call Neptune and beg them to send you another. They don't sell them separately at the store and I don't know where else you'd find one.) If you have it, it need to be inserted into your line, inside the reservoir, near the top but not above the top, above the water line at all times, with the little angled hole in the side pointed back down into the water. You'll know when it's working because it adds a bit of noise, but it is effective.

    You said that your sump level goes up and down all day. If you set it to normally go no lower than the low sensor on your ATK (i.e. at the highest flow rate you use), then there's a way you might be able to leave the ATK running during the day (removing the If Time command) and still not get those alarm messages. To do this, first you have to determine exactly how long at any one time that the water level will be above the low point. Let's say it's at lower flow / higher sump level for three hours, and then goes back to your maximum return rate for several hours. To avoid the alarms, you can program a simple virtual output, call it 'ATOHiTimer':

    Set OFF
    If ATK_Hi CLOSED Then ON
    Defer 190:00 Then ON


    Set that Virtual Output to Auto and tuck it away in the unused tiles (it will still work, but you won't need to do anything with it.) Now, your base_email alarm, add the line:

    If Output ATOHiTimer = ON Then ON

    Now, your ATK will work during the day (when the water level is at it's normal lowest), and you won't get any alarms about the water level in the sump being high, unless it's been high for more than 3 hours, 10 minutes, which might indicate an actual malfunction. This is just an example, you can tweak this up a number of ways as well. You can have that virtual output only activate the notifier about the ATK high sensor at specific times of the day. You can add lines so that it doesn't activate during Feed cycles, if you use them.



    What is 'Free'? It has an 'If Error' statement in your alarm code. There should be a corresponding 'When On' command in the 'Free' device's programming code (like with the ATK).

  7. #7
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschulist View Post

    All of those ATK_Hi Closed Then ON alarms mean you have a siphon issue.


    Keep the ATK_HI alarm to alert you of issues with the ATK in the future.

    He runs variable speeds on his pump during the day, and the sump return chamber water level changes with that. Some of the alarms are due to that. If he leaves the command active as is, he will get constant false alarms.

    I agree though, sounds like he's got some siphoning going on.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for the help guys.... Great news, i went to my garage and found the ATK box and guess what was inside... the Siphon device!!! I went ahead and installed that which Im pretty positive will fix my excessive dribble issues

    "Free" is an outlet on my EB that I keep always on, will eventually be a 2nd (backup) heater. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what my intention was when creating that alarm (If Error Free Then ON). I'm going to delete that alarm for now.

    Thanks for the tip on the programming. When i have more time this weekend, I'm going to mess around with it and I'll create the VO to support my variable speed return pump use case.

    Question - what would the code be to support having the ability to only notify on the ATK at specific times of day... how would i write that? For example, I would only want those ATK notifications from 8PM to 8AM.

    Also, how do i add lines so that it doesn't activate during feed cycles. I do use Feed Cycle A for feeding and D for maintenance, or at least that's what I'm trying to do hahaha

    Thank you so much for the help, it's very appreciated. I'm pretty new to the hobby and brand new to the Apex! This forum has been a big help!

  9. #9
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaserabrams View Post
    Thanks for the help guys.... Great news, i went to my garage and found the ATK box and guess what was inside... the Siphon device!!! I went ahead and installed that which Im pretty positive will fix my excessive dribble issues

    "Free" is an outlet on my EB that I keep always on, will eventually be a 2nd (backup) heater. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what my intention was when creating that alarm (If Error Free Then ON). I'm going to delete that alarm for now.

    Thanks for the tip on the programming. When i have more time this weekend, I'm going to mess around with it and I'll create the VO to support my variable speed return pump use case.

    Question - what would the code be to support having the ability to only notify on the ATK at specific times of day... how would i write that? For example, I would only want those ATK notifications from 8PM to 8AM.

    Also, how do i add lines so that it doesn't activate during feed cycles. I do use Feed Cycle A for feeding and D for maintenance, or at least that's what I'm trying to do hahaha

    Thank you so much for the help, it's very appreciated. I'm pretty new to the hobby and brand new to the Apex! This forum has been a big help!


    Fantastic that you found the device. Make sure that it's working; while the pump is running, you should see a stream of water pouring from the device back into your reservoir.

    Here's that virtual outlet with the additional code you're interested in.

    Set OFF
    If ATK_Hi CLOSED Then ON
    Defer 190:00 Then ON
    If Time 08:00 to 20:00 Then OFF
    If FeedA 000 Then OFF
    If FeedB 000 Then OFF
    If FeedC 000 Then OFF
    If FeedD 000 Then OFF

    Here, you would only be notified if the high sensor stayed closed for 3 hr 10 min, and you would only be notified after 8 PM (although the 3 hr 10 min interval could have started before then.)

    You're welcome. Programming the Apex to do cool things can be fun but it doesn't come easy; there's no definitive programming handbook that explains everything in extreme detail, with examples. (I would read that thing cover to cover, if it existed.)

  10. #10
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    I have a 3rd optical sensor plugged into the FFM to detect when the reservoir tank gets low that it will shut off the pump so that it does not burn out again. I am not sure of the programming for this. My best guess was the below. Would this work to turn off the pump when the tank gets low?

    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Swx3_1 OPEN Then ON
    If Swx3_2 CLOSED Then OFF
    If Swx3_3 OPEN Then OFF
    When On > 005:00 Then OFF
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:04 Then OFF
    Min Time 060:00 Then OFF

  11. #11
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Yes. That will work.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

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