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Thread: When Command, Conditional, or maybe ramping?

  1. #1
    Regular Vistor
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    When Command, Conditional, or maybe ramping?

    I'm trying to figure out a way to ramp my 2 Tunze 6095s from 30% up to 90% and then back to OFF. My original thought was to ramp it from 90% down to 0% in 1 minute but I know these Tunze units are not supposed to be run at less than 30% since they don't have the large controller box.

    My second thought was to ramp them down to 30% and then set them to off. However, since I'm not necessarily going to know exactly when they'll be down, I wasn't sure if there was a simple way to do that.


    Right Tunze
    Fallback OFF
    If Output Direction = ON Then MaxFlow
    If Output Direction = OFF Then MinFlow
    If Output FeedSwitch = ON Then FeedMode
    If Output MaintSwitch = ON Then OFF
    If Output Shutdown = ON Then OFF

    Direction is a simple virtual output that is a basic OSC 0,60,60 command. So it should toggle on/off every 60 minutes.
    I did it this way so I can just tweak this one profile and still have it toggle the left and right Tunze without needing to set times and profiles for each outlet.

    Maxflow ramps in 1 minute from 30 to 90%
    MinFlow ramps in 1 minute from 90 down to 30%

    I initially tried to do a When command but couldn't seem to get it understand any state other than On or Off. I was hoping to have it set the Tunze to Off if it had been at minflow for more than 5 minutes.

    I also thought maybe a conditional statement to turn the Tunze to Off if the minflow were less than 30%. I would then just have the minflow ramp from 90 down to 29%. Just enough to shut it down.

    I'm not sure if there's a way to use a defer command here, but I'm not sure if this could work either.

    The other final option would just be to set Minflow to ramp from 90 down to 0% and hope that won't cause any longevity problem with the Tunze 6095s. This is not the ideal method but since my minimum time is going to be hourly, it may not matter much since there would be time to cool down and it would only be for maybe 20-30 seconds at a time. But I'd like a cleaner way to do this if possible. I can set an Off setting with the Kessils since I know when they will hit the end of their ramp and it's only one entry per day. This is going to be considerably more often.

    -
    S

  2. #2
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    I'm very confused about what exactly you want the end result to be. A sketch might help.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  3. #3
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    When Command, Conditional, or maybe ramping?

    The When command is not a general-purpose tuner. It is a safety measure - if the specified period of time elapses, it puts an output into manual off (supply n most uses) or manual on (rare usage) where it will stay until the user intervenes.

    A Tunze controllable pump having a “big controller box” or not doesn’t matter. Tunze pumps don’t run at low 0-10v Input voltages less that 30-35% depending on model. They will not run at such low speeds, so Tunze says don’t attempt to do so.

    I’m as confused as zombie here. It is not clear at all about how you want the pumps to run. The part about turning them off is the part I do not understand, and when you want them off.

    Updated with corrections to my horrible pre-coffee tapping.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  4. #4
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    This is for a river tank and the idea is to swap current direction periodically to reduce any spots with poor flow or settling of detritus.

    Operational Example:

    8:59 left side on full. Right side completely off.

    9:00 Direction changes. Right side ramps up to full over a minute or so. Left side should ramp down over a minute or so to off. During that ramping time both pumps will be on to varying amounts.

    By 9:02 right side on full. Left side completely off.

    Ramping time used to provide additional turbulence during the directional changeover. At 30% the flow direction on the ends of the tanks never really changes so Off is needed. But would like a nice way to ramp this down without a bunch of times individually programmed for ramp down / off statements on each outlet. ItÂ’s a 5 foot tank and a 6095 is too wide a flow to do much on the other end if the opposing pump is still on at all.

    Hopefully I made what IÂ’m up to clearer and not worse.

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    S

  5. #5
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    So basically you want it to ramp over a minute, hold for 1 minute at either 90 or off and then ramp to the other direction over a minute, then hold 1 minute, then repeat? Note the 90 used requires the latest firmware. If you're not on it and don't want to update, use another profile in its place with 90-90 ramp over 1 minute.

    If so you want this

    RampUp
    30-90 over 1 minute

    RampDn
    90-30 over 1 minute

    PumpOSC1
    OSC 000:00/001:00/003:00

    PumpOSC2
    OSC 001:00/001:00/002:00

    PumpOSC3
    OSC 002:00/001:00/001:00

    PumpOSC4
    OSC 003:00/001:00/000:00

    Left
    If Outlet PumpOSC1 = ON Then RampUp
    If Outlet PumpOSC2 = ON Then 90
    If Outlet PumpOSC3 = ON Then RampDn
    If Outlet PumpOSC4 = ON Then OFF

    Right
    If Outlet PumpOSC1 = ON Then RampDn
    If Outlet PumpOSC2 = ON Then OFF
    If Outlet PumpOSC3 = ON Then RampUp
    If Outlet PumpOSC4 = ON Then 90

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  6. #6
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    Sort of. Longer time in the middle.

    8:59 right full, left off ( just before switching )
    9:00 left ramp up, right ramp down
    9:01 left full, right off
    10:00 right ramp up, left down
    10:01 right full, left off
    11:00 left ramp up, right ramp down
    11:01 left full, right off

    And so on...

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    S

  7. #7
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Frankly, I don't think the 1-minute ramp down really offers much of anything beneficial, and just results in a need for significant extra complexity in programming. The ramp up does have the benefit of being more gentle than a hard/fast ON.

    I'd use this:

    "Direction" is a name I find confusing - how about "Tunze_Toggle" instead ?. I'll use the latter here:

    [Tunze_Toggle]
    OSC 0:00/60:00/60:00 Then ON

    [Tunze_Left]
    Set OFF
    If Output Tunze_Toggle = On Then MaxFlow
    If Output FeedSwitch = ON Then FeedMode
    If Output MaintSwitch = ON Then OFF
    If Output Shutdown = ON Then OFF

    [Tunze_Right]
    Set OFF
    If Output Tunze_Toggle = Off Then MaxFlow
    If Output FeedSwitch = ON Then FeedMode
    If Output MaintSwitch = ON Then OFF
    If Output Shutdown = ON Then OFF
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  8. #8
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    No argument there for simpler and I had already gotten something similar to work. One of Tunzes shuts off from full tilt with an audible tick but not when I hold the wire so I think it’s just a shifting cable on the tank frame when the torque cuts out. It’ll rattle the cable on the Aquarium frame from time to time too so it may be due for a new impeller.

    That’s kind of what got me started on this “why not” path. It just seems like there SHOULD be a way to do this in a less fiddly manner.

    Is there an updated programming guide I missed with the new commands? The one on the site says 2014 so it won’t have the new When statements or the Conditional checks and I’m not sure what else I might be missing.

    In any event this is mostly intellictual curiosity in what I can make this do. Worst case I set it to suddenly stop and pad the cable to rid the noise, or buy a new impeller.

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    S

  9. #9
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    In case anyone is curious or wants to try with the Apex Classic, I did finally get this working.

    3 Ramps used

    Feedmode
    start 30
    end 30
    time 1 minute

    Max flow
    start 30
    end 100
    time 5 minutes

    Min flow
    start 100
    end 30
    time 5 minutes

    3 oscillate commands

    Direction toggle switches every 60 minutes leading to an overall timing cycle of 120 minutes. It could be increased to a tidal flow simulation on a 360 minute cycle and the delay oscillation and min/max flow ramps could be adjusted to allow for that.

    ToggleDir
    Set OFF
    OSC 000:00/060:00/060:00 Then OFF

    1st delay is ON for 5 minutes, then Off for 55 minutes, then ON for 60 minutes for a total of 120 minutes. As long as the overall cycle matches the direction cycle this should be stable. You would probably want the 5 minute portion to match the min/max ramp times.

    delay1
    Set ON
    OSC 005:00/055:00/060:00 Then OFF

    2nd delay stays ON for 65 minutes, then OFF for 55 minutes for a total cycle of 120 minutes. As long as the overall cycle matches the direction toggle, this should be stable. You'll need to do some math here, but the 5 minute portion should match whatever you use for the min/max ramp time.

    delay2
    Set ON
    OSC 065:00/055:00/000:00 Then OFF


    This is just a way for a low power night mode where both tunze pumps will end up running at 30%. This lasts from 9pm to 6am

    Night
    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Time 21:00 to 06:00 Then ON


    The Left Tunze starts out the cycle when Nightmode shuts off. It will ramp from 30% to 100% over 5 minutes and then ramp down to 30% over 5 minutes and then shut OFF. After an hour it starts at 30% and ramps up to 100% over 5 minutes. When the direction changes it will go from 100% to 30% and then shut off after five minutes. When night mode comes on this Tunze is off, so it just snaps to 30% as these can't run less than 30% reliably. Feedswitch will set output to 30%, but nightmode will override it. There is a maintenance and shutdown switch. These override any other setting and set the tunze to OFF.

    Left Tunze
    Fallback OFF
    If Output ToggleDir = ON Then MaxFlow
    If Output ToggleDir = OFF Then MinFlow
    If Output Delay1 = OFF Then OFF
    If Output FeedSwitch = ON Then FeedMode
    If Output Night = ON Then FeedMode
    If Time 05:55 to 06:00 Then MaxFlow
    If Output MaintSwitch = ON Then OFF
    If Output Shutdown = ON Then OFF


    Right Tunze will ramp up from 30% to 100% and then when the direction changes will ramp down from 100% to 30% and then after 5 minutes to OFF. When night mode kicks in this unit is running at 100% and will ramp down to 30% over 5 minutes. Feedswitch will set to 30%, but nightmode will override it. There is a maintenance and shutdown switch. These override any other setting and set the tunze to OFF.

    Right Tunze
    Fallback OFF
    If Output ToggleDir = OFF Then MaxFlow
    If Output ToggleDir = ON Then MinFlow
    If Output Delay2 = OFF Then OFF
    If Output FeedSwitch = ON Then FeedMode
    If Output Night = ON Then MinFlow
    If Output MaintSwitch = ON Then OFF
    If Output Shutdown = ON Then OFF

    There are likely many other ways to do this, but this works even if it is a bit more complicated than it probably should be.

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