Best Practices for heater controllers?

[ALaBella1]

This thread is fantastic!! I am most def. an Apex noob. I have been running a RSM250 mostly manually for years. A few months ago I decided to take the plunge and upgraded to a AquaVim 155gal corner tank. This obviously is a big learning curve for me coming from a AIO tank. I wanted as much automation as I could so I picked up the new Apex and bought some other pieces used.

I'll try to keep it to heating for now and not go into my entire setup. I was looking for titanium and the best bang for my buck I could find was 2x Aquatop 400 watts with controller. I have a fancy inkbird which has a plug for heat and a plug for the chiller as well as wifi. I have not hooked up the chiller yet, but plan too once my corals are moved over from the RSM250. I have the 2 aquatops in my skimmer chamber and they are set to somewhere between 80-82 so they are essentially not in control (in hindsight I wish I got ones without controllers and am actually looking for replacements). I have them both plugged into a 2-way splitter which is plugged into the heater outlet on the inkbird which I set at 78. The Inkbird is plugged into my EB832 on Port 4. It's set to advanced and my programming is set to this:

Fallback OFF
If Tmp < 79.9 Then ON
If Tmp > 80.0 Then OFF
If Output Cor_3_1 Percent < 90 Then OFF
If Power Apex Off 001 Then OFF
Defer 001:00 Then ON

So... my thinking here was as long as the temp is below 79.9 the inkbird is always on and controlling the heaters. If the Cor20 goes off or low due to feed mode, water changes, maint, it turns off.

I learned the hard way during some sump work that I was doing that the skimmer chamber was able to get up to 100 degrees because the temp probes were upstream under the inlet and there was no flow. Thankfully I caught this before the hot water got into the DT and I let it cool down to room temp before powering stuff back on.

I do have a heat pump for my home which provides central air and heat - so we usually are around 70 or so all year round give or take 5 degrees either way.

I want to possibly replace these heaters with ones that are element only. I was also wondering if I should consider adding a second inkbird to the mix, one for each heater. I am also thinking of increasing wattage as I do not believe these heaters are keeping my temps steady enough.

Any help on setup and/or programming would be most appreciated. I'm leaning toward new heaters and possibly doing one in sump and one in tank instead of both in the sump...

Here's a weeks worth of data

2022-09-07_12-12-14.jpg

[nicholb]

In your programing, this would be the better way to do it with a SET ON. As soon as the >80 is not true the set on would take over (as long as none of the other offs were true). I would also consider using a fallback ON since you are trusting the inkbird to do the controlling of the temp. That way it could continue to run if the EB lost contact with the Apex brain.

Fallback OFF
SET ON
If Tmp > 80.0 Then OFF
If Output Cor_3_1 Percent < 90 Then OFF
If Power Apex Off 001 Then OFF
Defer 001:00 Then ON

I usually like running two heaters that are each just big enough to barely keep up. That way you have more time to resolve any stuck on heat issues. I'd probably go with a second controller rather than two heaters on the same as it would protect you better against controller failure. I did this for a while with inkbird controllers, but eventually switched back to having the Apex do primary control as the inkbirds allowed too much swing in temp for me and were a bit slow to pick up temp changes. I'm currently using the program in this thread.

https://forum.neptunesystems.com/sho...Heater-Program

[zombie]

In your programing, this would be the better way to do it with a SET ON. As soon as the >80 is not true the set on would take over (as long as none of the other offs were true). I would also consider using a fallback ON since you are trusting the inkbird to do the controlling of the temp. That way it could continue to run if the EB lost contact with the Apex brain.

Fallback OFF
SET ON
If Tmp > 80.0 Then OFF
If Output Cor_3_1 Percent < 90 Then OFF
If Power Apex Off 001 Then OFF
Defer 001:00 Then ON

I usually like running two heaters that are each just big enough to barely keep up. That way you have more time to resolve any stuck on heat issues. I'd probably go with a second controller rather than two heaters on the same as it would protect you better against controller failure. I did this for a while with inkbird controllers, but eventually switched back to having the Apex do primary control as the inkbirds allowed too much swing in temp for me and were a bit slow to pick up temp changes. I'm currently using the program in this thread.

https://forum.neptunesystems.com/sho...Heater-Program

That will cycle too fast unless a min Time statement is added or the Defer is lengthened. The original way he did it is better than the set ON IMO if he wants to use the inkbird.

With that said, I wouldn't even bother with the inkbird and seperate the two heaters out into their own EB832 outlets and do something along these lines

Heater1
Fallback OFF
If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF
If Temp < 72.0 Then OFF

Heater2
Fallback OFF
If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF

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[nicholb]

That will cycle too fast unless a min Time statement is added or the Defer is lengthened. The original way he did it is better than the set ON IMO if he wants to use the inkbird.

Just using it as a safety high temp there should not be any cycling. He would want it ON always unless the safety temp is hit. The inkbird would be handling the normal temp keeping on/off so you would not want to try to do it in 2 places.

[zombie]

Just using it as a safety high temp there should not be any cycling. He would want it ON always unless the safety temp is hit. The inkbird would be handling the normal temp keeping on/off so you would not want to try to do it in 2 places.

It would cycle real fast if/when that safety is reached. You want either

Min Time 030:00 Then OFF

Or hysteresis on a high safety limit.


There is a case to be made for either method. Min Time keeps temp lower if/when the inkbird fails. Hysteresis ensures more stability without cycling on and off really fast. Without that, the set ON method will turn on and off really fast (likely every minute) and damage things further.

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[ALaBella1]

Ok so... I'm kinda glad I waited to do anything because all of a sudden, poof, all the IM Helio heaters are now significantly lower in price. So, being that I don't think a single 400 watt Aquatop has the ability to heat my 155g tank and 23g sump, I was going to try dual 500w. The elements alone are down from $165 to $100. The dual setup with controller is $269 which seems like a good deal since it includes the controller and 2 magnetic holders. So, in theory I could do one 500W on the Helio controller, one 500w on the Inkbird with the chiller on the other port. Each controller to one of my two EB832s. The thing I like about the helios and the controller is they come separated. 2 elements with a plug for each. I'm now bound to the hard-wired controllers on the Aquatops. Only decision now should I do one in the tank and one in the sump. The Finnex elements and the BRS ones are options as they offer 500 or 800w and 600w respectively.

Thoughts?

https://www.innovative-marine.com/sh...ent-p252780228

https://www.innovative-marine.com/sh...ons-p252784130

[zombie]

Personally, I use these and let the apex do the heavy lifting. I usually get more than 5 years out of them before they fail and they have always failed off not on. Apex is primary control.

https://www.saltwateraquarium.com/hm...0aAo8MEALw_wcB

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[ALaBella1]

Well those look pretty good and great reviews too. My only concern is them not being enough for my tank/sump size. Do they come in higher wattages? Also how do you have them set?


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[ALaBella1]

Boy do I feel like a dum dum now. The Helio's do not have their own plugs. They have a quick disconnect plug that is only compatible with their controllers. I guess I will give the ones you recommended a try.

[zombie]

Well those look pretty good and great reviews too. My only concern is them not being enough for my tank/sump size. Do they come in higher wattages? Also how do you have them set?


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I use 150W heaters on my 60 and 65 gallon tanks. 400-500W dual heater is the correct size for a 165.

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[ALaBella1]

Ok, so assuming I want

1. this to be strictly for redundancy - If one fails I want a single unit to be able to heat my 155g/23g sump system
2. stagger the heaters at 12 hours each
3. I already have one inkbird in the mix
4. The two 400w aquatop heaters that are in there now do not appear to be keeping up - These are the ones I have which might just be undersized - https://www.amazon.com/AquaTop-81960...00UXPD306?th=1
5. I have not turned on my lights yet. I imagine they might warm things up a little bit. Possible my 2x 400watts will be ok?
6. I plan to add my chiller in the coming months. My current inkbird has 2 plugs, 1 heat 1 cool. The second inkbird would be heat only. I'm a little worried about having no redundancy for the chiller... is there a way to split power in the opposite direction wherein my chiller would be plugged into BOTH inkbirds which will cycle on and off every 12 hours?

[zombie]

Ok, so assuming I want

1. this to be strictly for redundancy - If one fails I want a single unit to be able to heat my 155g/23g sump system
2. stagger the heaters at 12 hours each
3. I already have one inkbird in the mix
4. The two 400w aquatop heaters that are in there now do not appear to be keeping up - These are the ones I have which might just be undersized - https://www.amazon.com/AquaTop-81960...00UXPD306?th=1
5. I have not turned on my lights yet. I imagine they might warm things up a little bit. Possible my 2x 400watts will be ok?
6. I plan to add my chiller in the coming months. My current inkbird has 2 plugs, 1 heat 1 cool. The second inkbird would be heat only. I'm a little worried about having no redundancy for the chiller... is there a way to split power in the opposite direction wherein my chiller would be plugged into BOTH inkbirds which will cycle on and off every 12 hours?

Depends on the lights you have. Unless you are using MH, I think chillers are basically worthless. Your house won't get much warmer in summer than it is in fall, sp what little help you might need can be easily accomplished with a small fan evaporatively cooling. Don't need an inkbird for that, just an EB outlet.

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[ALaBella1]

I'm up to try anything. What kind of fan would you recommend? Just an FYI about the lights, I have 2 Skys and 1 Kessil A360x. They are hanging from the the top of my canopy. It's a 155g corner tank with a full canopy over it's paneled glass top.

[zombie]

I'm up to try anything. What kind of fan would you recommend? Just an FYI about the lights, I have 2 Skys and 1 Kessil A360x. They are hanging from the the top of my canopy. It's a 155g corner tank with a full canopy over it's paneled glass top.

I like vornado fans since they blow more air in a smaller profile and don't need to oscillate. I use a 4in on my 65g. A 6-9" fan you can mount somewhere securely should be more than sufficient.

The sky and kessil will not add much heat to the tank. Maybe 1/3 of their wattage give or take.

You may have issues with the glass panel top. I scrapped mine years ago in favor of the BRS 1/8" nylon mesh netting and a window screen kit. Blocks less light than glass, doesn't require frequent cleaning, but still keeps jumpers in.

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[Shunopoli]

It's actually best to set the heaters thermostat high and let the apex control temp unless the heater thermostat doesn't play nice with being powered on and off. I would set the thermostats at 80 or 81 (make sure they actually match the apex temp or adjust accordingly so they are 80 or 81 apex temp and then do this)

Heater1
Fallback OFF
If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
If Temp > 78.2 Then OFF
If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
If Temp < 77.6 Then ON
If Temp < 75.0 Then OFF

Heater2
Fallback ON
If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
If Temp > 78.2 Then OFF
If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
If Temp < 77.6 Then ON

You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

I just tried this code and not sure it's working. It's currently 15:00 so I would think heater2 would be on, but heater1 is on.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh nevermind. I thought the time was set to on not off. my bad

[nicholb]

I just tried this code and not sure it's working. It's currently 15:00 so I would think heater2 would be on, but heater1 is on.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh nevermind. I thought the time was set to on not off. my bad

You might want to try my updated version. It is a bit more refined than the one I originally posted in this thread.

https://forum.neptunesystems.com/sho...Heater-Program

[Shunopoli]

So when you say more refined are you stating that it has less of a variation or just more error control?

[nicholb]

Error control and the backup heat logic works better.

[Shunopoli]

Ok I tried your program and works pretty good never drops below 77.5 or gets higher than 78.2, granted I had to update the error for the heater from 30 mins to hour cause it did take longer than 30 to get from 77.5 to 78.2

[Wetside]

You might want to try my updated version. It is a bit more refined than the one I originally posted in this thread.

https://forum.neptunesystems.com/sho...Heater-Program

Do you use this programming with just the heaters alone or with Inkbirds in the mix?

I'm curious as to whether anyone uses the Inkbirds to act as a safety should the outlet fail in the on position instead of the Apex being the safety instead in the case the Inkbirds fail.

[nicholb]

Do you use this programming with just the heaters alone or with Inkbirds in the mix?

I'm curious as to whether anyone uses the Inkbirds to act as a safety should the outlet fail in the on position instead of the Apex being the safety instead in the case the Inkbirds fail.

Yes, I use the Apex as the primary with the program I posted. One of the heaters is a BRS one without it's own controller so I use an Inkbird set a little higher than my normal temp as a backup for that one. The other is a Finex with it's own controller used as a backup to the Apex primary.

[Wetside]

Yes, I use the Apex as the primary with the program I posted. On of the heaters is a BRS one without it's own controller so I use an Inkbird set a little higher than my normal temp as a backup for that one. The other is a Finex with it's own controller used as a backup to the Apex primary.

Do you worry about constant cycling of the Inkbird on/on by the Apex? I really like the idea of using the Apex to control and using the Inkbirds as the failsage, but I don’t want to lead the Inkbirds to a premature death.

[nicholb]

Do you worry about constant cycling of the Inkbird on/on by the Apex? I really like the idea of using the Apex to control and using the Inkbirds as the failsage, but I don’t want to lead the Inkbirds to a premature death.

Been doing it for about 4 years without an issue. It really does not cycle too many times per day. I have the heaters sized so they are each barely enough for the tank and have to occasionally call for the backup. That makes them stay on several minutes each cycle. In the winter the primary is on almost continually.

[don_chuwish]

Been doing it for about 4 years without an issue. It really does not cycle too many times per day. I have the heaters sized so they are each barely enough for the tank and have to occasionally call for the backup. That makes them stay on several minutes each cycle. In the winter the primary is on almost continually.

Same with mine - been fine for many years now doing it this way. I have noticed recently that the Inkbirds are due for recalibration. They're reading a bit higher than the Apex temp probe.

[Wetside]

Been doing it for about 4 years without an issue.

Thank you for sharing your experience. ItÂ’s extremely reassuring. IÂ’m going to implement your code with my own setup. Appreciate you sharing your talents with others.