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Thread: MACNA '13 Announcemnets

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeneryH View Post
    Try spending a week being the sole person answering all of the help requests related to "I can't connect" and let is know how it works out. You may think remote access is easy but empirical data shows that a very high number of users make basic mistake such as using http://apex while they are trying to access their controllers from the internet.
    Lol i hear ya! Don't take this the wrong way because i think that you have a solid product... But please don't forget about us tech guys.


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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mstefa1 View Post
    ... i think that you have a solid product...
    FYI - Other than Terrance, we are all just regular hobbyists volunteers helping each other out.

  3. #28
    Frequent Visitor eyesolator's Avatar
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    I understand that servers, net access and software development cost money but charging $$ to make your product easier to use? It will be interesting to see what a user with $1500+ invested gets for free.

    John

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyesolator View Post
    I understand that servers, net access and software development cost money but charging $$ to make your product easier to use? It will be interesting to see what a user with $1500+ invested gets for free.

    John
    I would imagine a 30 day trial.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyesolator View Post
    I understand that servers, net access and software development cost money but charging $$ to make your product easier to use? It will be interesting to see what a user with $1500+ invested gets for free.

    John
    Personally, I don't care what they charge or what I get for free because I don't really see myself using it. Seeing the "how can I access my Apex over the interwebs" posts here and on RC, I've always been amazed at the level of help Neptune provides many folks - for free - on a product that probably doesn't have much margin involved. If they've finally decided to make folks pay a premium for that level of support, so be it.

    What I *don't* want to happen though is the slow turning of the screw on existing customers that many software companies seem to be adopting nowadays, where what used to be part of the product is now a "subscription" or a premium level product. I hope that I will always be able to get into my Apex, remotely, without having to skip across the clouds and through Neptune's server. For some reason though, I'm not getting warm fuzzies that this will always be the case.

  6. #31
    Frequent Visitor mil3sdavis's Avatar
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    With all this talk about subscription fees for Fusion, is it safe to assume that the Reefbuilders article was incorrect?

    http://reefbuilders.com/2013/08/30/a...ef+Builders%29
    Quote Originally Posted by ReefBuilders.com
    The new Apex Fusion software will be a free upgrade for all Apex users requiring only a firmware update to get started when it is released in Mid November.

  7. #32
    Master Control Freak aquamanic's Avatar
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    I think everybody is getting a little worked up over nothing.

    Fusion will be free.

    Now, having said that Neptune is exploring what other possible functionality that doesn't exist today might be a chargeable item. I don't know what that might be. Enhancements above and beyond current functionality in the web pages. And the market will decide if that's worth it or not.

    And like our king said, 'If you like your Neptune web pages you can keep your Neptune web pages'. Fusion is for those folks that are less technical and really want something that is plug and play. Like a TV.
    Al

    I do not work for Neptune. Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums!
    For Neptune support send an email (don't call) to: [email protected] .
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    Comprehensive Reference Manual can be found here.

  8. #33
    Frequent Visitor eyesolator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurt_n View Post
    Seeing the "how can I access my Apex over the interwebs" posts here and on RC, I've always been amazed at the level of help Neptune provides many folks - for free - on a product that probably doesn't have much margin involved. If they've finally decided to make folks pay a premium for that level of support, so be it.
    Not sure how many people are calling Neptune for that basic help? If you are speaking of the people (no need for names, we all know who they are) who provide valuable help on the forums, unless they are somehow compensated by Neptune I'm not sure Neptune can take much credit for helping owners on forums.
    I'm not trying to bash anyone just find it interesting that a charge would be attached to being able to easily program their product. Other that a few programming hiccups here and there I can generally solve most of my programming problems these days so I will see little use for Fusion other that it looks cool. I'm thinking more of the person who doesn't know the between IP and a urinal. It's there product they can do what they want.

    John

  9. #34
    Frequent Visitor mil3sdavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquamanic View Post
    Fusion will be free.

    .....

    And like our king said, 'If you like your Neptune web pages you can keep your Neptune web pages'. Fusion is for those folks that are less technical and really want something that is plug and play. Like a TV.
    All Hail The King!!!

    I already have my Apex working through DynDNS, but I'm excited about this update because hopefully I'll be able to access Fusion from work. We have some really strict web filters at work, which block every possible free DynDNS address, so all I can do at work is monitor my system through ReefTronics and take the rest of the day off when something goes bad.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyesolator View Post
    Not sure how many people are calling Neptune for that basic help? If you are speaking of the people (no need for names, we all know who they are) who provide valuable help on the forums, unless they are somehow compensated by Neptune I'm not sure Neptune can take much credit for helping owners on forums.
    Nope, I'm not talking about the forums.

    What I'm saying is that over the years, watching the Neptune RC board, there would be some basic networking questions that would always arise. And they didn't necessarily involve difficulty with the Apex itself - it was more port forwarding/firewall/porting issues. More times than not, after help was provided, the original poster would come back and say something like "Thanks, but I emailed neptune and they telneted into my system and fixed everything." That's a level of service you are not going to find with any other consumer electronics out there.

  11. #36
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    Let me try and provide some clarity here from an official Neptune Systems position.

    - Our goal in creating Apex Fusion was not to lessen the support burden (although that side effect will be there). Our intent was to open up to the masses the coolness, fun, and security many of us experts now enjoy -- things remote connectivity, advanced control of lighting, etc.

    - Apex Fusion will be made available to new as well as existing customers at some level as a free service, forever. That will always be the case.

    - Your existing Apex functionality (via its built in web server) will not go away, you will not be forced into the new model. If you have your Apex set up and tweaked to your liking, awesome, it will still operate in the same fashion it always has (save for the squashing of some bugs and a few enhancements in the next firmware release)

    - There will be things down the road that will be much easier to configure in Apex Fusion than through the set up pages built into the Apex

    - As much as possible, the base level support for new devices supported, new modules, etc. will be still available via the built-in Apex Web Server. That said, there likely will be extended functionality, ease of use, etc. when those new devices or modules are configured or operated from the Apex Fusion interface.

    - There is a good chance, at some point, there will be a premium level of service made available for a nominal fee.

    - Due to our "Mobile First" approach to developing Apex Fusion, we have created a web app that runs amazing on any mobile device we have tried. With its cool drag and drop dashboard and responsive design, we think most people will gravitate to it and away from the native mobile apps. That said, we are not doing away with the native mobile apps. We may not add a lot of new features to them, but they will be made current as necessary such as the upcoming iOS7 release.

    So there you have it, if you like what you have, nothing changes. If you want the basics in Apex Fusion, it will be free. Of course we know we will never make everyone completely happy. However, in the end, I think we have come up with something with choices that will satisfy the widest audience of people.

  12. #37
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    Well said, thank you.

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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terence View Post
    ...
    - Your existing Apex functionality (via its built in web server) will not go away, you will not be forced into the new model. If you have your Apex set up and tweaked to your liking, awesome, it will still operate in the same fashion it always has (save for the squashing of some bugs and a few enhancements in the next firmware release)
    Terence,

    Thanks for the response. I'm still confused though. My main question was "Is Fusion going to be tied to the firmware, or is it just something that can be turned on/off, allowing a person to remain current with the latest firmware?" In other words, if I don't want my controller running through the Fusion servers BUT I want a bug fix in a future firmware update, am I going to be forced onto the Fusion platform (yes, I know it'll be free at the basic level) in order to have current firmware?

    While responses have basically said "Don't worry, be happy, nothing will change" the response above, once you strip away the marketing lingo, tells me that if you don't update your firmware then "yes" your Apex will work the way it always had. (Duh.)

    Don't take this the wrong way. I love what Neptune is doing with the Apex and would buy one again in a heartbeat. But I'm concerned that instead of making the integration with the Fusion server an optional thing - regardless of the firmware - it is going to become a one-way road to Fusionland in the Cloudosphere once you get to a certain level of firmware. What I'd like to see is something as simple as a check box to turn on/off that capability, much like the phantom AquaServ service that all our controllers currently have.

    So there you have it, if you like what you have, nothing changes...
    Including your firmware, for all eternity? That's the question I'm not seeing answered. Either that, or I'm being too anal and literal in reading the responses!

  14. #39
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    Your firmware is your firmware. We will forever continue to make improvements in the Apex firmware, of some sort or another, until we end-of-life the product. Should you not like any (some) of those changes, you can certainly choose not to upgrade firmware. This is no different than many other devices out there in the tech world. What I am saying WILL NOT happen is that we decide to change out entirely the existing firmware for something completely new and different such that you MUST use Apex Fusion. THAT, will NOT happen. If you do not sign up for Apex Fusion, you have no Apex Fusion.

    I hope that further clarifies it for you.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terence View Post
    Your firmware is your firmware.

    Well, yes. Not sure how your could push down new firmware without our consent.

    Since no one will come out and say "Yes... you will be able to upgrade your firmware to take care of bug fixes, but NOT have to accept the Fusion service", then yes... it does clarify things.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurt_n View Post
    Terence,

    Thanks for the response. I'm still confused though. My main question was "Is Fusion going to be tied to the firmware, or is it just something that can be turned on/off, allowing a person to remain current with the latest firmware?" In other words, if I don't want my controller running through the Fusion servers BUT I want a bug fix in a future firmware update, am I going to be forced onto the Fusion platform (yes, I know it'll be free at the basic level) in order to have current firmware?

    While responses have basically said "Don't worry, be happy, nothing will change" the response above, once you strip away the marketing lingo, tells me that if you don't update your firmware then "yes" your Apex will work the way it always had. (Duh.)

    Don't take this the wrong way. I love what Neptune is doing with the Apex and would buy one again in a heartbeat. But I'm concerned that instead of making the integration with the Fusion server an optional thing - regardless of the firmware - it is going to become a one-way road to Fusionland in the Cloudosphere once you get to a certain level of firmware. What I'd like to see is something as simple as a check box to turn on/off that capability, much like the phantom AquaServ service that all our controllers currently have.



    Including your firmware, for all eternity? That's the question I'm not seeing answered. Either that, or I'm being too anal and literal in reading the responses!
    I don't think you are being too anal at all. These are valid questions / observations. All the answers are being carefully worded (there is a plan).....and you can bet there will be a time when features that might be a good fit for the firmware will instead be implemented in Fusion. The premium subscription model will be here much sooner than later, I would bet. Fusion will be where some of the features (amongst a plethora of other possibilities) we lost when Aquanotes was retired will resurface (though this is probably a very good thing). One of the features that folks have been asking for is the return of the maintenance / tank inhabitants database. My bet is this will surface in Fusion...and it is the perfect fit for a premium feature.

    But there will be some features that show up in Fusion that are not implemented in the Apex firmware that will leave us......SMH. You can count on it. The functionality gap will grow and grow. I would imagine that Apex had to make a decision on whether they build an Apex "Ultra" or find another solution to expand the feature set. A web-enabled Apex will save on a lot of R&D costs and open up opportunities for other revenue streams. Let's see how this plays out.......

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurt_n View Post
    Well, yes. Not sure how your could push down new firmware without our consent.

    Since no one will come out and say "Yes... you will be able to upgrade your firmware to take care of bug fixes, but NOT have to accept the Fusion service", then yes... it does clarify things.
    You can bet there will not be two sets of firmware, so even if you don't join the Fusion train, you will inherit issues that crop up in the development cycle (that effect the firmware) whether you turn it "ON" or not.

    EDIT: And I say this as someone who will be using Fusion (including premium features). I enjoy all the Tech in the hobby as much as I enjoy the animals.

  18. #43
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    So just to be clear non of the Current controls Via the Local server will be lost right? That's the whole reason I just Purchased this thing because of its adaptability..... * I'd like to know before it Arrives & I unbox it

  20. #45
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tazguy25 View Post
    So just to be clear non of the Current controls Via the Local server will be lost right? That's the whole reason I just Purchased this thing because of its adaptability..... * I'd like to know before it Arrives & I unbox it
    "Your existing Apex functionality (via its built in web server) will not go away"


  21. #46
    Frequent Visitor MatroxD's Avatar
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    I may be in the minority here, but I'm excited. I have a system set up already, but some of the features and ability to tweak things further, without having to deal with the pesky ISP and outside DNS and more, that while I can and have done it(and am fully able to help others), is just another variable I do our will not have to worry about.

    I won't have to run "special firmware" because GMX gets retarded. I will say that from a non "cloud" computing fan, I hope you guys have it setup to handle failures and large usage issues, not to mention security.

    My main dislike of cloud are security breaches such as PSN and others that have happened in the past. I simply don't trust it personally. But I am going to try with you guys.

    I also think I am going to try it and see overall. If I don't like it, I won't use it(the extended feature set). I personally think that's the problem with "announcements". If it's not ready to be released(like it's going live immediately in public beta) , IMHO, it really shouldn't be announced. I have seen the same thing over years and no different here. You get tons of confusion and skepticism that goes hand in hand with trying to explain without active hands on. The announcement "seems" like a good "idea", but in practical application it's not at all. But thats just my. 02..

    But I look forward to trying it out.

    From Note 2 on Tap 4

  22. #47
    Relax stoked! chris_kitedude's Avatar
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    stylish multiple fade cameras on the dasboard! i like!

    im all in for the fusion service. aslong as it is secure and my data doesnt get exposed to someone i dont want it to see. if there are regular updates involved i can see that there has to be a fee at some point for the end user as renting or housing a huge load of serverpower to host all the apex users has to be paid too by somebody. but to sum things up for me its all about security. i dont want anybody besides me and a tankkeeper to see and modify my data - if thats beeing granted i see no problems. :-)

    c
    C​hris

  23. #48
    Frequent Visitor LobsterOfJustice's Avatar
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    I think Kurt's main concern is that "regular" apex will be left in the dust (and not get firmware updates) while Fusion users get all the new, latest, and greatest. On some level, I agree this is a concern. But it sounds like that will not be happening, for the time being at least. However, at some point, companies always stop servicing older products when newer products are released. Microsoft doesn't release games for the original xbox anymore, and my laptop's OS is so old that chrome and firefox no longer offer updates for me. Similarly, I would bet Neptune isn't throwing a whole lot of firmware updates (if any?) out to Aquacontroller users anymore, and yes, I'm sure one day the current "Apex" will fall in to that category as well. But it doesn't sound like that is happening quite yet with the release of Fusion.

    And it sounds like Fusion will be awesome. You can't fault a company for progress just because you don't like change (I say this as someone who hates change and, on some level, is dreading getting used to a new Apex interface just as I finish getting used to this one). The company is continuing to offer updates, it's up to you to accept them or not. I agree, if we get to the point where a paid service is really getting all the new features while regular users are left behind, that would be different, but in my limited dealings with Neptune it doesn't sound like that will happen.

    Sorry if I'm rambling. Anyway, making the networking issues irrelevant will be a HUGE deal to most users. I know a lot of people who hold off buying controller systems because they are intimidated by that aspect, and I know other people who have controllers either sitting in a box, or acting as an expensive light timer because they don't have the time or knowledge to really get into the nitty gritty with it. Really getting into the apex and programming has become like a second hobby for me over the past few months, and not everyone is looking for that.
    180g reef with all the bells and whistles

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by LobsterOfJustice View Post
    I think Kurt's main concern is that "regular" apex will be left in the dust (and not get firmware updates) while Fusion users get all the new, latest, and greatest. On some level, I agree this is a concern. But it sounds like that will not be happening, for the time being at least. However, at some point, companies always stop servicing older products when newer products are released. Microsoft doesn't release games for the original xbox anymore, and my laptop's OS is so old that chrome and firefox no longer offer updates for me. Similarly, I would bet Neptune isn't throwing a whole lot of firmware updates (if any?) out to Aquacontroller users anymore, and yes, I'm sure one day the current "Apex" will fall in to that category as well. But it doesn't sound like that is happening quite yet with the release of Fusion.


    And it sounds like Fusion will be awesome. You can't fault a company for progress just because you don't like change (I say this as someone who hates change and, on some level, is dreading getting used to a new Apex interface just as I finish getting used to this one). The company is continuing to offer updates, it's up to you to accept them or not. I agree, if we get to the point where a paid service is really getting all the new features while regular users are left behind, that would be different, but in my limited dealings with Neptune it doesn't sound like that will happen.

    Sorry if I'm rambling. Anyway, making the networking issues irrelevant will be a HUGE deal to most users. I know a lot of people who hold off buying controller systems because they are intimidated by that aspect, and I know other people who have controllers either sitting in a box, or acting as an expensive light timer because they don't have the time or knowledge to really get into the nitty gritty with it. Really getting into the apex and programming has become like a second hobby for me over the past few months, and not everyone is looking for that.
    Is Neptune Systems rolling out Fusion for Apex or are you suggesting that Apex will reach it's EOL and be retired with a new platform of hardware designed for Fusion? What you said would only make sense if the Apex was discontinued because only then it would make sense to no longer support it in it's current form.

    One fear that nobody mentioned here is the threat that Fusion could get hacked. Can you imagine coming home to find your heater, chiller, ATO, or dosing pumps turned on all day by a hacker? I'm sure security will be paramount because frankly it would probably be the end of Neptune if this occurred. You can say it's not possible but considering major company's everyday get hacked when they have some of the best minds developing for them... And even if it was possible to get hacked today it's unlikely that someone will find and target my individual Apex but a network of thousands of reefs might be tempting.
    Matt

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mstefa1 View Post
    Is Neptune Systems rolling out Fusion for Apex or are you suggesting that Apex will reach it's EOL and be retired with a new platform of hardware designed for Fusion? What you said would only make sense if the Apex was discontinued because only then it would make sense to no longer support it in it's current form.
    I love having this communication line with you guys. It really does allow us to, as much as possible, keep you close to the pulse of Neptune Systems. And, I love the passion for our product I see here. That love and passion is one of the exact reasons we came out with Fusion and MADE SURE IT WOULD WORK WELL on hardware that has been out in the field for about five years now. A large part of our reason to do it was to not leave you guys in the dust and just come out with a new controller. In the tech world, who else really supports 5+ year old hardware with newer and greater features for no $? Please guys, I am a tech-guy, I know how cynical I can become sometimes when hearing tech news and trying to read between the lines. That is not the case here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mstefa1 View Post
    One fear that nobody mentioned here is the threat that Fusion could get hacked. Can you imagine coming home to find your heater, chiller, ATO, or dosing pumps turned on all day by a hacker?
    This is a great point and one I hope you guys raise with any online service you subscribe to, in this hobby or otherwise. I forgot to emphasize in my announcements that we will have end-to-end encryption and this was key part of our design of Apex Fusion.

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