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Thread: Is it possible for the Apex to inform you that your return pump has died and how to set that up..

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    Is it possible for the Apex to inform you that your return pump has died and how to set that up..

    Im new to the Fusion world and have recently upgraded my Apex System. I've had an Apex for some time, but since I've switched and started Fusion, I am amazed at what this system can do. My job has me traveling most of the year and this leaves it up to my wife to take care of the tank frequently. This makes Fusion very useful to me.
    I'm trying/hoping to set some safety features up and one thing I can't seem to find is a way to shut the skimmer down if your return pump dies. I am thinking of adding extra OS-1 sensors and a float valve to the sump for high water protection. But is there a way to monitor an outlets power consumption and if the outlet or said pump dies, trigger a chain of shut offs and other safety factors?

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    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Yes. You would use watts and amps readings to determine a dead return. High amps readings indicate a stalled pump. Low wattage readings indicate a broken impeller, loss of load (no water flow but not stalled), or failed winding. This is the code I use for my 25W, 0.3A return with a startup time of 6 seconds (I have tools to test that. Assume 10 seconds for yours).

    A stalled motor will generate 2-6 times nominal current, but this will also occur during startup for the startup time. As a result, it's a good idea to lock out the return and send an alert if current exceeds 1.5-2 times nominal current for at least 1.5 times the motor start time (in my case I use 0.5A with a delay of 10 seconds). A significant failure in the impeller that loses load will typically reduce wattage to zero, but can be as high as 25% of nominal. This can also be confused during motor start, so the same delay is applicable to this as well.

    PumpFail (virtual outlet)
    Set OFF
    If Outlet Return Watts < 13 Then ON
    If Outlet Return Amps > 0.5 Then ON
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:05 Then OFF
    When On > 000:02 Then ON

    Return
    (Other code)
    If Outlet PumpFail = ON Then OFF


    The last defer and the when statement locks the PumpFail outlet to manual ON so that it stops the pump until I manually reset the VO before additional damage can be done to it.





    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Yes. You would use watts and amps readings to determine a dead return. High amps readings indicate a stalled pump. Low wattage readings indicate a broken impeller, loss of load (no water flow but not stalled), or failed winding. This is the code I use for my 25W, 0.3A return with a startup time of 6 seconds (I have tools to test that. Assume 10 seconds for yours).

    A stalled motor will generate 2-6 times nominal current, but this will also occur during startup for the startup time. As a result, it's a good idea to lock out the return and send an alert if current exceeds 1.5-2 times nominal current for at least 1.5 times the motor start time (in my case I use 0.5A with a delay of 10 seconds). A significant failure in the impeller that loses load will typically reduce wattage to zero, but can be as high as 25% of nominal. This can also be confused during motor start, so the same delay is applicable to this as well.

    PumpFail (virtual outlet)
    Set OFF
    If Outlet Return Watts < 13 Then ON
    If Outlet Return Amps > 0.5 Then ON
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:05 Then OFF
    When On > 000:02 Then ON

    Return
    (Other code)
    If Outlet PumpFail = ON Then OFF


    The last defer and the when statement locks the PumpFail outlet to manual ON so that it stops the pump until I manually reset the VO before additional damage can be done to it.





    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.
    Can you help me understand why you chose 13 watts as your low cut-off? In reading the text it appears it could have been anything slightly greater than 25% of the normal (normal being 25W)?

    I have a return pump that runs at 338W and 2.8 amps. I was going to use the following:

    Set OFF
    If Output Return-Pump Watts < 85 Then On
    If Output Return-Pump Amps > 3.0 Then On
    Defer 0:05 Then ON
    Defer 000:05 Then OFF
    When On > 000:02 Then ON

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    Quote Originally Posted by tenpercenter View Post
    Can you help me understand why you chose 13 watts as your low cut-off? In reading the text it appears it could have been anything slightly greater than 25% of the normal (normal being 25W)?

    I have a return pump that runs at 338W and 2.8 amps. I was going to use the following:

    Set OFF
    If Output Return-Pump Watts < 85 Then On
    If Output Return-Pump Amps > 3.0 Then On
    Defer 0:05 Then ON
    Defer 000:05 Then OFF
    When On > 000:02 Then ON
    It's to add a buffer because you dont know where in that spectrum it will lie. I use 50% for mine to make sure it catches a problem.

    You also have a very large return, which means it's starting time will be higher than my little 25w return. I would use 15 seconds so it doesnt lock out on startup.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Thanks! How does this look?

    Set OFF
    If Output Return-Pump Watts < 169 Then ON
    If Output Return-Pump Amps > 3.0 Then ON
    Defer 0:15 Then ON
    Defer 000:05 Then OFF
    When On > 000:02 Then ON

    And then just added this code to the outlet running the return:
    If Output RTNProblem = ON Then OFF

  6. #6
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenpercenter View Post
    Thanks! How does this look?

    Set OFF
    If Output Return-Pump Watts < 169 Then ON
    If Output Return-Pump Amps > 3.0 Then ON
    Defer 0:15 Then ON
    Defer 000:05 Then OFF
    When On > 000:02 Then ON

    And then just added this code to the outlet running the return:
    If Output RTNProblem = ON Then OFF
    I would also bump up the amps threshold a bit. It should never be under 115% of nominal or it may trip during utility light load conditions that bring the utility voltage up closer to 130V. You want that somewhere between 3.3 and 4.5 depending on whether you value reliability (more likely to trip at the expense of misoperations) vs security (minimize or eliminate misoperations but potentially miss a fault).

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    I would also bump up the amps threshold a bit. It should never be under 115% of nominal or it may trip during utility light load conditions that bring the utility voltage up closer to 130V. You want that somewhere between 3.3 and 4.5 depending on whether you value reliability (more likely to trip at the expense of misoperations) vs security (minimize or eliminate misoperations but potentially miss a fault).

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Thank you!

    Switchng gears a bit, I have a standby generator that runs the vast majority of the house (auto-transfer, 18kw unit). Should that be shaping my code on the amps/watts front?
    I’m sure it should when it comes to managing the short period where the generator starts up, haven’t thought much about that either.

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    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenpercenter View Post
    Thank you!

    Switchng gears a bit, I have a standby generator that runs the vast majority of the house (auto-transfer, 18kw unit). Should that be shaping my code on the amps/watts front?
    I’m sure it should when it comes to managing the short period where the generator starts up, haven’t thought much about that either.
    The defer handles that. Switching to generator power is just like plugging in the pump as far as it is concerned.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Got it. Appreciate it greatly!

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