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Thread: More constant temp

  1. #1
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    More constant temp

    Hello all. I am fairly new to the Apex game so be gentle!

    I have a 120 DT and 30 gal refugium. My 500w heater does a good job of heating the tank well but I am wondering if a 200w or maybe a 100w would keep the temp more steady.

    Maybe a 100w on one outlet that will be pretty much constantly on and another outlet with the 500 to make up the difference. Maybe it will slow down the cool down period.

    Thoughts?

    PS. I am in San Diego so we are pretty temperate.




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  2. #2
    Frequent Visitor Todd's Avatar
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    Your idea would probably work, but to be honest I dont think it is necessary. The chart is showing about a 1 deg range and the Min and Max about 2 deg. That is pretty reasonable. Where do you have the temp probe relative the the heater? Is it in close proximity? I would recommend that it be located upstream of the heater. That would allow the heated water to mix well with the tank before contacting the probe.

  3. #3
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    You probably would be better served with two heaters in the 200-300W range rather than a single one. Then you can run them alternating and the rise time will be doubled to tripled. Not to mention reliability wise 2 heaters is much better than 1.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    Your idea would probably work, but to be honest I dont think it is necessary. The chart is showing about a 1 deg range and the Min and Max about 2 deg. That is pretty reasonable. Where do you have the temp probe relative the the heater? Is it in close proximity? I would recommend that it be located upstream of the heater. That would allow the heated water to mix well with the tank before contacting the probe.
    It is upstream in the sump.


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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    You probably would be better served with two heaters in the 200-300W range rather than a single one. Then you can run them alternating and the rise time will be doubled to tripled. Not to mention reliability wise 2 heaters is much better than 1.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.
    That was a thought also.


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  6. #6
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    You could even do 3 heaters with the control scheme that a 100W heater is coded just to turn off after 0.1 to 0.2 above the high setpoint. The other two 200W heaters could alternate on 12 hr cycles between the setpoint and if it goes below the low setpoint 0.1 to 0.2 degrees (most likely a heater failed here) then they both kick on and ignore the alternating. This is how I did my heater setup when I had my 120.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  7. #7
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    I have 3 150W EJ heaters in the sump of a slightly smaller tank than yours. Heater1 and Heater2 take turns with primary duty, assisting each other if heating takes too long. The third heater is a backup in case either of the other two fail. With the code below, the water temp both in the overflow before the heaters and in the sump return compartment after the heaters is maintained within a range of 0.6 F at all times and within a range of 0.3 F more than 90% of the time. This degree of temperature control may not be necessary, but I prefer it. Note that this does result in increased EB832 power relay on/on cycles per day (~20) for each heater. It's much the same as with home heating - If you want tighter control, set your equipment to cycle more often and understand that it may wear out faster.

    Clipboard02c.jpg

    Clipboard02d.jpg



    [Heater1]
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < RT+0.0 Then ON
    Defer 001:15 Then ON
    If Temp > RT+0.1 Then OFF
    If Time 16:00 to 03:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < RT+-0.1 Then ON
    If Output Heater2On030 = ON Then ON
    If Output HeatersOn045 = ON Then OFF
    If Temp > 78.7 Then OFF

    [Heater2]
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < RT+0.0 Then ON
    Defer 001:20 Then ON
    If Temp > RT+0.1 Then OFF
    If Time 04:00 to 15:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < RT+-0.1 Then ON
    If Output Heater1On030 = ON Then ON
    If Output HeatersOn045 = ON Then OFF
    If Temp > 78.7 Then OFF

    [BackupHeater]
    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Temp < RT+-0.2 Then ON
    Defer 000:30 Then ON

    [Heater1On030]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater1 = ON Then ON
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

    [Heater2On030]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater2 = ON Then ON
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

    [HeatersOn045]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater1 = ON Then ON
    If Output Heater2 = OFF Then OFF
    Defer 045:00 Then ON

  8. #8
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    Interesting thread...
    It's clear that to many relay cycles is bad but I'm not very clear on how many is too many.
    I think the outlet for heaters is likely the most frequently cycled outlet I have. It looks like it cycles about once an hour or 24 per day.
    Is that too many?

    The alternating heaters is also interesting but I currently am out of outlets on the EB832...

  9. #9
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoralFan1776 View Post
    Interesting thread...
    It's clear that to many relay cycles is bad but I'm not very clear on how many is too many.
    I think the outlet for heaters is likely the most frequently cycled outlet I have. It looks like it cycles about once an hour or 24 per day.
    Is that too many?

    The alternating heaters is also interesting but I currently am out of outlets on the EB832...
    The basic rule of thumb I use is that if you cycle no more than every 10 minutes, an electromechanical relay (EB4, EB832, 4 and 8 on EB8) or every 1 minute on a triac (1-3,5-7 on EB8) the outlet will most likely outlive the useful lifespan of the energy bar. Triple those values to be almost guaranteed the outlet will outlive the other electronics in the energy bar.

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    The basic rule of thumb I use is that if you cycle no more than every 10 minutes, an electromechanical relay (EB4, EB832, 4 and 8 on EB8) or every 1 minute on a triac (1-3,5-7 on EB8) the outlet will mist likely outlive the useful lifespan of the energy bar. Triple those values to be almost guaranteed the outlet will outlive the other electronics in the energy bar.

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    That's the information I was looking for!

    Thanks.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    I have 3 150W EJ heaters in the sump of a slightly smaller tank than yours. Heater1 and Heater2 take turns with primary duty, assisting each other if heating takes too long. The third heater is a backup in case either of the other two fail. With the code below, the water temp both in the overflow before the heaters and in the sump return compartment after the heaters is maintained within a range of 0.6 F at all times and within a range of 0.3 F more than 90% of the time. This degree of temperature control may not be necessary, but I prefer it. Note that this does result in increased EB832 power relay on/on cycles per day (~20) for each heater. It's much the same as with home heating - If you want tighter control, set your equipment to cycle more often and understand that it may wear out faster.

    Clipboard02c.jpg

    Clipboard02d.jpg



    [Heater1]
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < RT+0.0 Then ON
    Defer 001:15 Then ON
    If Temp > RT+0.1 Then OFF
    If Time 16:00 to 03:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < RT+-0.1 Then ON
    If Output Heater2On030 = ON Then ON
    If Output HeatersOn045 = ON Then OFF
    If Temp > 78.7 Then OFF

    [Heater2]
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < RT+0.0 Then ON
    Defer 001:20 Then ON
    If Temp > RT+0.1 Then OFF
    If Time 04:00 to 15:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < RT+-0.1 Then ON
    If Output Heater1On030 = ON Then ON
    If Output HeatersOn045 = ON Then OFF
    If Temp > 78.7 Then OFF

    [BackupHeater]
    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Temp < RT+-0.2 Then ON
    Defer 000:30 Then ON

    [Heater1On030]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater1 = ON Then ON
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

    [Heater2On030]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater2 = ON Then ON
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

    [HeatersOn045]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater1 = ON Then ON
    If Output Heater2 = OFF Then OFF
    Defer 045:00 Then ON
    What is RT in the code above?

  12. #12
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    Not sure why we should be so tightly controlling the temperature range. Is there any evidence to show we need to nail the temperature so narrowly? I have my 90 gallon with 20 gallon sump heated by a single 250 watt heater set at 77 to 79 ... it cycles about 4 to 5 times a day 3 hours to cool down to 77 from 79 in a room set at 70 to 72 ... and then heats up slowly to 79 over about 3 hours.

    Even if you want a narrow range .. I seems to me that the size of the heater should better match the size of the tank. In a 'perfect' setup the output of the heater would match the heat loss and be on all the time.

    My 2 cents.

  13. #13
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarineGP View Post
    Not sure why we should be so tightly controlling the temperature range. Is there any evidence to show we need to nail the temperature so narrowly? I have my 90 gallon with 20 gallon sump heated by a single 250 watt heater set at 77 to 79 ... it cycles about 4 to 5 times a day 3 hours to cool down to 77 from 79 in a room set at 70 to 72 ... and then heats up slowly to 79 over about 3 hours.

    Even if you want a narrow range .. I seems to me that the size of the heater should better match the size of the tank. In a 'perfect' setup the output of the heater would match the heat loss and be on all the time.

    My 2 cents.
    I did a little bit of testing myself on this subject (not fully scientific since I don't have a controlled lab) and noticed 3 things with temp

    1. Quick changes of more than 0.5 degrees in a timespan of 15 minutes or less show an immediate response in polyp extension. If you oversize your heater you need to keep the bounds tight.

    2. No effect on growth rate for large diurnal swings (I only tried up to 3 degrees) as long as the change occurs very slowly.

    3. Corals that were subjected to my stress test survived dramatic events like tank crashes but newer corals that were not subjected to my test (same species but different colors) did not survive the same crash.

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  14. #14
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    Zombie: Interesting ...

    Added Comment:

    I take from you post that a too large a heater could be a problem unless you use a very narrow temperature range .... and that corals that are acclimated to a wider range of temperature may become more resilient. I use a 2 degree range ... and a cooling and heating cycle which lasts 6 hours ... about 3 hours each. The heater is about 3 watts per gallon. I preheat water changes of course.

  15. #15
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesreich View Post
    What is RT in the code above?

    'RT+##' or 'RT+-##' instead of a number in the Temp code refers to the numbers present in the Temperature section of the Apex Season table. The Season table allows for seasonal variance of temp, sunset/sunrise, and moon parameters. This can be accessed from the Misc page of Apex Local (not Apex Fusion.) RT+ with no number after it inserts the actual value from the table. RT+ with a number after it is the temp from the table plus the number. RT+- (not a typo) with a number after it is the temp from the table minus the number.

    I keep the day to day temp very tight, and superimpose it on a 1 degree seasonal variation in average temp.

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