Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: ATK coding

  1. #1
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174

    ATK coding

    I just set up my ATK and I was wondering if this coding is correct for what I want to do. When I do water changes, I turn off the system so the sump level rises. After Iím done Iíll turn the return pump back on but I want the ATK to wait a few mins to let the sump level stabilize.

    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Low_Se OPEN Then ON
    If High_S CLOSED Then OFF
    When On > 005:00 Then OFF
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:04 Then OFF
    Min Time 090:00 Then OFF
    If Output COR15 = OFF Then OFF
    Defer 005:00 Then ON



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  2. #2
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    10,400
    You can't have two defer then ON in the same program. You can either remove the 10 second defer and all ATO will need to wait 5 minutes after the switch is continuously open (I would make your min time shorter by at least 5 minutes if you do this) or you have to seperate the return pump state and defer into a virtual outlet.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  3. #3
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    I havenít coded an apex in years so bare with me lol whatís does the defer :10 then on and defer :04 then off even mean?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    10,400
    Quote Originally Posted by Sobo's Reef View Post
    I havenít coded an apex in years so bare with me lol whatís does the defer :10 then on and defer :04 then off even mean?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's used for debouncing on the optical sensor. It makes sure that the switch is continuously in the open position for 10 seconds before it's allowed to turn the pump on and any condition that would turn it off must be true for 4 seconds before the pump stops.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  5. #5
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Oh okay, that make senses. Thanks.

    So if I wanted to make a code for what I originally wanted but wanted to keep the defer :10/:04 lines, how would I go about that? I know you mentioned something about a separate return pump state and defer into a virtual outlet but Iím not sure I follow exactly


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    10,400
    Like this

    BlockATO (virtual outlet)
    Set OFF
    If Output COR15 = OFF Then ON
    Defer 005:00 Then OFF

    ATK
    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Low_Se OPEN Then ON
    If High_S CLOSED Then OFF
    If Output BlockATO = ON Then OFF
    When On > 005:00 Then OFF
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:04 Then OFF
    Min Time 090:00 Then OFF




    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  7. #7
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Awesome, thank you so much!! Iím not gonna lie I had to google what a virtual outlet is on the apex but it seems rather simple!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN (CST)
    Posts
    161
    In programming terms, a virtual outlet is essentially a [boolean] variable you can program like any other outlet based on various inputs and then use to program other outlets or trigger an alarm. When a virtual outlet is 'on,' it doesn't do anything directly like a physical outlet.

    'Normal' outlets are the 120V outlets in the EB4/EB8/EB832, and the DC24 outlets. If you think of your typical heater outlet, you would program it something like this:

    Fallback OFF
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.5 Then OFF

    We could make a virtual outlet called vHeater and program it with the exact same code, then program the heater outlet like this:

    Fallback OFF
    If Output vHeater = ON then ON

    (Note that the fallback statement is used to set the default state of an EB outlet if it looses communication with the controller, so it is unnecessary and useless for a virtual outlet.) In this example, the heater outlet is not using the temperature probe values directly, rather it is using the value of the virtual outlet (which in turn looks at the temp probe.)

    This is just an example; there is really no benefit to doing it this way, but you can have more complex programming in a virtual outlet making the apex programming more flexible. There are a couple of potential benefits of doing this:


    1. Virtual outlets can be logged like any other outlets, so you can look back in the log to see what has happened
    2. A virtual outlet can be used in the programming of multiple other outlets, making it easier to write the code
    3. Virtual outlet names can make it easier to understand what code means (especially since we can't use comments)
    4. virtual outlets can let you do more complex logic programming that is difficult or impossible to do otherwise.
    5. There are probably more benefits that others can elucidate.


    As an example, in my setup, I have a couple of momentary push buttons connected to my breakout box that I use to activate a 'feed mode.' Apex will not let you activate any of the true feed modes with button, so I created virtual outlets called vFeedA, vFeedB, etc. I have the vFeedA outlet programmed like this:

    Set OFF
    If TopBtn CLOSED Then ON
    Defer 010:00 Then OFF

    This means the virtual outlet (variable) vFeedA turns on when the button TopBtn is pushed and stays on for 10 minutes. In my skimmer programming I have the statement

    If Output VFeedA = ON Then OFF

    to turn off the skimmer during the virtual feed mode.

    Hope this makes sense

  9. #9
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    I feel like my ATK still isnít working properly... it seems it defers the allotted time then automatically pumps water in but itís never at the low sensor, itís always below... thereís prob an obvious code problem but I canít figure out what it is


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #10
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN (CST)
    Posts
    161
    First, how do you have your sensors oriented - are they mounted horizontally in the ATK bracket? In this position, the normal point for the water to trigger the optical switch is right at the tip of the sensor (the point on the pyramid.)

    Next, how do you have your ATK programmed - like Zombie suggested in post 6? There are several ways to debug it. The first question is if the ATK outlet is getting switched to "OFF" after 5 minutes by the "When On > 005:00 Then OFF" If this is happening, then you would need to reset it each time, so that should be fairly obvious.

    Do you have the outlets logged? Go to the output screen that lists all the outputs in Fusion. On the far right there's a Log column. Make sure there is a check mark for the ATK outlet and any virtual outlets used in the ATK program. If there isn't a checkmark, click on the outlet to open its properties, click the box at the bottom, next to 'Enable' and send the configuration to your controller.

    The log screen will enable you to see when the outlets and virtual outlets are switching on and off, so it will help diagnose if the ATK outlet is switching off because of an issue with the virtual outlet or the regular one.

    Assuming that's ok, I would log into the Apex Local server and watch the status of the optical sensor inputs as your ATK cycles on and off. (you can do this on Fusion, but there can be a signifiant delay between the time that something changes and the time you see it on fusion, so the local server is better.)


  11. #11
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    10,400
    Quote Originally Posted by Sobo's Reef View Post
    I feel like my ATK still isnít working properly... it seems it defers the allotted time then automatically pumps water in but itís never at the low sensor, itís always below... thereís prob an obvious code problem but I canít figure out what it is


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    It's probably the 90 minute Min Time. It will fill to the tip of the pyramid so to speak and then has to wait 90 more minutes, in which the combination of the water level equalizing and evaporation can have the level below the sensor when you check. This can be mitigated by allowing it to fill more often and/or increasing the 10 second defer then OFF

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  12. #12
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174

    ATK coding

    I didnít know you could move the sensors.. the bracket is mounting horizontally but I didnít touch the actually sensors. The water line seems to always go maybe less then 1/4 inch below the pyramids point on the low sensor. The ATO just seems like it constantly runs after the defer even though it doesnít get me to where I need to be.
    Hereís the programming for the ATK:
    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If ATO_Lo OPEN Then ON
    If ATO_Hi CLOSED Then OFF
    When On > 005:00 Then OFF
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:04 Then OFF
    Min Time 060:00 Then OFF

    I have this set to ďAutoĒ... now I do have a separate outlet set for the ATO pump itself which is also set to ďAutoĒ
    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF

    Probably bc the power supply is plugged into the EB832.

    Should I just delete this outlet?

    I do not have logs for the ATK but I did just turn that on.




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #13
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN (CST)
    Posts
    161
    I'm a bit confused - you show programming for the ATK and say you have a separate outlet set for the ATO pump itself and say "the power supply is plugged into the EB832."

    By "power supply," do you mean the power cord for the PMUP? Is one program for the 24V outlet on the EB832 and the other program for the outlet on the FMM?

    I'll go on that assumption. Does the ATO come on and off as the water level rises & falls, just not get the level you want (i.e. can you just move the entire ATK bracket up ľ" to get the water level where you want it?) or does it fill once and then not come on again even if the water drops?

    What does Apex say the states of the ATO_Lo and ATO_Hi optical sensors are when it has kicked off?

  14. #14
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepydoc View Post
    I'm a bit confused - you show programming for the ATK and say you have a separate outlet set for the ATO pump itself and say "the power supply is plugged into the EB832."

    By "power supply," do you mean the power cord for the PMUP? Is one program for the 24V outlet on the EB832 and the other program for the outlet on the FMM?

    I'll go on that assumption. Does the ATO come on and off as the water level rises & falls, just not get the level you want (i.e. can you just move the entire ATK bracket up ľ" to get the water level where you want it?) or does it fill once and then not come on again even if the water drops?

    What does Apex say the states of the ATO_Lo and ATO_Hi optical sensors are when it has kicked off?
    The first ATK code is set to the 24V outlet. The other ATO pump is set on the EB832.

    The Lo sensor will say ďclosedĒ when it kicks off but a few mins later itíll be magically open again.. like I canít be evaporating water that fast and itís not like my tank is leaking anywhere either.

    Perfect example right now about the sensors. ATK kicked on at 2:30 exactly. ATO_Lo switch was closed. Itís now 2:54 and the switch says itís open again... water line ISNT at tip of pyramid(not that far off but not where it should be) but it wonít come back on for 60:00 due to the defer.. super confused


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  15. #15
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN (CST)
    Posts
    161
    ok - I'm still not sure exactly what's plugged into what, but the programming is obviously programming the pump, so I won't worry about it.

    If the dashboard says that the Lo sensor is closed, then the program is doing exactly what it is supposed to do: The water level drops low enough so ATO_Lo goes open. After it has stayed open continuously for 10 seconds, the outlet turns on. It stays on until ATO_Lo has been closed for 4 seconds, then turns off and won't turn on again for at least 60 seconds.

    How long does it take for the ATO_Lo sensor to open after the ATO turns off? What may be happening is that the water level in the return chamber of your sump takes a bit to equilibrate with the rest of the system, so while the ATO pump is running the level is artificially high, so it covers the sensor and turns off the pump, then the water level goes down a bit.

    From a practical stand point, even if the water level is a bit off, it will still be consistent, which is what you're after with an ATO. If it really bothers you, you can change the behavior a bit by changing where the water discharges or change the Defer...OFF statement to delay the pump turning off a bit longer.

  16. #16
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepydoc View Post
    ok - I'm still not sure exactly what's plugged into what, but the programming is obviously programming the pump, so I won't worry about it.

    If the dashboard says that the Lo sensor is closed, then the program is doing exactly what it is supposed to do: The water level drops low enough so ATO_Lo goes open. After it has stayed open continuously for 10 seconds, the outlet turns on. It stays on until ATO_Lo has been closed for 4 seconds, then turns off and won't turn on again for at least 60 seconds.

    How long does it take for the ATO_Lo sensor to open after the ATO turns off? What may be happening is that the water level in the return chamber of your sump takes a bit to equilibrate with the rest of the system, so while the ATO pump is running the level is artificially high, so it covers the sensor and turns off the pump, then the water level goes down a bit.

    From a practical stand point, even if the water level is a bit off, it will still be consistent, which is what you're after with an ATO. If it really bothers you, you can change the behavior a bit by changing where the water discharges or change the Defer...OFF statement to delay the pump turning off a bit longer.
    I mean it seems like itís working properly. I guess Iím just not used to an ATO going off every hour.. my nano went off maybe Twice a day as opposed to this tank going off once an hour. I guess I could change the defer time as it seems to only take 1 min to get back to a closed state.

    Another question tho... is the siphon break fitting really a requirement? This thing is loud and annoying as hell lol


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #17
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    10,400
    The siphon break is necessary if the full level of your reservoir is higher than the low sensor.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  18. #18
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Oh well thatís a definite... darn. Is that fitting supposed to spray water out every time the ATK starts dumping water?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #19
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN (CST)
    Posts
    161
    What kind of system did you have before?

    When I played around with the Neptune optical sensors, it took about a ⅛" change in water level to trigger the sensor. How often it runs ultimately will be determined but the size of the return pump chamber, the amount of evaporation and the MinTime statement in the program. The amount of daily evaporation is presumably relatively constant, so if the system is running more often, it's likely because the sensor is more sensitive.

    One other thing to maker sure of - the configuration of the pump tubing and the sensors doesn't allow water to splash onto the sensor when the pump is running, does it?

  20. #20
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174

    ATK coding

    No itís not splashing onto the sensor but itís causing a lil bit of bubbles on the sensor bracket and ultimately into my DT

    Oh and I had a Fluval Evo 13.5 with a Tunze 3155 ATO


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #21
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Iím wondering if the way I have my ATO line hooked up to the ATK is the reasoning the fitting is spraying out water so hard?? I was under the impression only a little bit of water would come out not a jet stream lol


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #22
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    10,400
    That fitting is supposed to go in your reservoir and yes, it will jet stream.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  23. #23
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    That fitting is supposed to go in your reservoir and yes, it will jet stream.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.
    Are you serious??? Omg I feel so stupid now lol


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #24
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    10,400
    Haha. The reason is so if/when the float ever activates as the last resort protection, the siphon break will shoot the water back into the reservoir and not continue to fill the sump up more.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  25. #25
    Frequent Visitor
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Blackwood NJ 08012
    Posts
    174
    Ohhh gotcha... okay thanks Iíll have to make that change tomorrow haha


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •