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Thread: Apex 2016 edition Losing network after firmware update

  1. #1
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    Apex 2016 edition Losing network after firmware update

    Anyone else experiencing connectivity issues since the latest firmware?

    Mine lost connectivity (wireless) yesterday and it could not reconnect.

    Reset it a half dozen times, including a power reset and nothing.

    Reset the unit to Wifi Defaults and It came back but was detecting my AP on the wrong Channel... how that happens is beyond me.

    I ended up having to reset it to Factory defaults and it finally reconnected and I was able to reconfigure the setup.

    Worked over night but has lost connectivity again and so far resetting it has done nothing again...

    With the Wifi reset done I can see the Apex Hot spot and can connect but it will not load the wifi network selection page now.

    I'm about to do a second factory reset of the unit... if I can't get the wifi network page to come up.

    The Apex has been working flawlessly up until this new firmware.

    If I do get access back, does anyone know if you can downgrade to the previous firmware?

    I have a support ticket in to Neptune as well but it takes forever to hear back Granted it is the evening on a Sunday.

    Any help/tips/recommendation would be appreciated. Not looking forward to re-configuring everything for a 2nd straight night...

  2. #2
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    You can't downgrade on a 2016.

    Make sure that DHCP is pulling the correct data from your router.

    Use a WiFi channel app to make sure you are on the optimal channel. Some routers (including my $200 nighthawk) are completely retarded when it comes to channel selection and the apex is fairly sensitive to channel interference. My router thought it was a great idea to put me on channel 3 when the highest interference was coming from 1 and 6. Put it on 11 and problem solved.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  3. #3
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    So tonight, I had to use our secondary network in the 2nd building on our property... The Apex would not recognize the 2.4Ghz radio that at least 7 other devices we have are using...

    Our primary wifi AP is a Unifi AP-Pro, the second one in the other building is an older Netgear R6300. Luckily it is within range enough.

    The room the Tank is in is not currently wired for a second network drop so hard wiring is not currently an option.

    Very frustrating after 4 months of near flawless operation...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    You can't downgrade on a 2016.

    Make sure that DHCP is pulling the correct data from your router.

    Use a WiFi channel app to make sure you are on the optimal channel. Some routers (including my $200 nighthawk) are completely retarded when it comes to channel selection and the apex is fairly sensitive to channel interference. My router thought it was a great idea to put me on channel 3 when the highest interference was coming from 1 and 6. Put it on 11 and problem solved.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.
    Thanks Zombie, I Already tried that before switching to our secondary network.

    Was using Channel 6. Yesterday the Apex was seeing it on Channel 4, not the 6 it was configured for I suspect that's why the unit was stuck in wifi setup loop. After the factory reset though yesterday it was seeing it correctly and started working.

    Today, it could not see it again, so I tried channel 8. Both of which are the least saturated in our neighborhood. Nothing, even after a factory reset.

    Finally I was able to get it on our Secondary network which is using channel 4 and for the past hour it has been ok.

    DHCP is fine on both routers/networks.

    The Unifi AP-Pro is quite intelligent with regards to choosing an appropriate channel but I opted to use manual.

    For example, Channel 6 which was working yesterday is 44% saturated today so I moved it to channel 8 which is 17%. Quite a bit lower. The second building and network is currently on channel 4 which is 14% saturated.

    Our neighborhood is really congested...

    We'll see how it goes over the next 24 hours or so. I got to this stage yesterday as well, using the better network and then it died again.

    I was away for 3 weeks and before that had no issues since the beginning of December. It all began after the most recent AOS Update for Apex.

    I also find it odd/frustrating that if you need to recover an Apex Unit that Fusion doesn't retain all of the settings including custom code for actions. It only restores Measurements, PH, Salt, ORP History.

    Fingers crossed it'll stay working more than a day this time.

    BUT at the same time I am not liking having to use a Router that has not had an update in a couple years... that older router is just primarily used for the garage where I don't really care about security as much

  5. #5
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raxnar View Post

    I also find it odd/frustrating that if you need to recover an Apex Unit that Fusion doesn't retain all of the settings including custom code for actions. It only restores Measurements, PH, Salt, ORP History.
    Not if you remember to backup your configuration. Then everything except the season table is recoverable after a reset (might be a few more odds and ends I'm forgetting about)

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  6. #6
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Did this issue start immediately after updating AOS, or did the issue emerge at some point later?

    As an IT network consultant who specialized in designing and building large WiFi networks for many years, let me share with you that using a non-standard 2.4GHz channel does not help - it actually can be worse. While there are 14 channels in the 2.4GHz ISM band, only 1-11 are legal to use in North America. Each channel is much wider than the spacing between channels - each channel overlaps the adjacent ones. Except in rare situations, there are effectively only 3 non-overlapping channels in the overall spectrum which can be used for 802.11b/g/n Wi-Fi: 1, 6, and 11. Use these 3 only; you can pick the least-congested of these 3 but do only use 1, 6, or 11.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Not if you remember to backup your configuration. Then everything except the season table is recoverable after a reset (might be a few more odds and ends I'm forgetting about)

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.
    Where would I find this zombie? I found the summary page.

    Sure would make make life easier.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    Did this issue start immediately after updating AOS, or did the issue emerge at some point later?

    As an IT network consultant who specialized in designing and building large WiFi networks for many years, let me share with you that using a non-standard 2.4GHz channel does not help - it actually can be worse. While there are 14 channels in the 2.4GHz ISM band, only 1-11 are legal to use in North America. Each channel is much wider than the spacing between channels - each channel overlaps the adjacent ones. Except in rare situations, there are effectively only 3 non-overlapping channels in the overall spectrum which can be used for 802.11b/g/n Wi-Fi: 1, 6, and 11. Use these 3 only; you can pick the least-congested of these 3 but do only use 1, 6, or 11.
    I will give this suggestion a try again once I have a full backup of the apex. I was already using 6 to begin with when the issue first started. The apex and only the apex started not being able see the AP at all after the second factory reset while using channel 6.

    The issue first started approximately 48 hours after updating.

    During troubleshooting i found found an update to the UniFi AP as well. Didn’t change the situation for the apex. All other devices are able to use the 2.4ghz network fine.

  9. #9
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raxnar View Post
    Where would I find this zombie? I found the summary page.

    Sure would make make life easier.
    It's too late for it now since you already factory reset. I believe it's in the wrench icon from the local dashboard only, but I'm not 100%. I always seem to forget where that and the season table is since I use them so infrequently.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    It's too late for it now since you already factory reset. I believe it's in the wrench icon from the local dashboard only, but I'm not 100%. I always seem to forget where that and the season table is since I use them so infrequently.

    You might be an engineer if...You have no life and can prove it mathematically.
    Oh I realize it is too late now

    You are correct, it is in Apex.local only, not Fusion. Once I have it all re-configured and calibrated I'll make sure to take a backup.

  11. #11
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raxnar View Post

    You are correct, it is in Apex.local only, not Fusion. Once I have it all re-configured and calibrated I'll make sure to take a backup.
    In addition to saving the apexcfg.bin file, it's a good idea to save a screenshot of each major fusion page (esp Modules, Outputs, Profiles and Network).

    It's also worth saving all of your code as a webpage. This can be done by clicking on your tank name at the far upper left of Fusion, and pulling down the menu to Configuration -> Summary, then right-click on the page and select Save Page As...

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    Did this issue start immediately after updating AOS, or did the issue emerge at some point later?

    As an IT network consultant who specialized in designing and building large WiFi networks for many years, let me share with you that using a non-standard 2.4GHz channel does not help - it actually can be worse. While there are 14 channels in the 2.4GHz ISM band, only 1-11 are legal to use in North America. Each channel is much wider than the spacing between channels - each channel overlaps the adjacent ones. Except in rare situations, there are effectively only 3 non-overlapping channels in the overall spectrum which can be used for 802.11b/g/n Wi-Fi: 1, 6, and 11. Use these 3 only; you can pick the least-congested of these 3 but do only use 1, 6, or 11.
    I've attached a snapshot of how saturated our neighborhood is. I also just realized I had the 2.4Ghz radio set to 40MHz which is even more saturated so I'm going to switch this radio to 20MHz as it is less so. Maybe that'll help keep me on the main network with the rest of the gear.

    Raxnetworks.jpg

  13. #13
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    Well, that change over worked.

    I am back on our main network in less than like 10 minutes and everything seems in order!

    Perhaps our neighborhood has just become over saturated on the 40MHz spectrum for the Apex to be happy.

    whatever the case it let me connect and so far stay connected to the preferred network!

    Lets hope it stays that way.

    I've also got a fresh backup done and a dozen or more screen shots taken to protect me in case of a factory reset or replacement unit down the road.

    Thank you everyone for the tips, suggestions, and polite feed back.

    This gear is good and works well, perhaps I jumped a little too hard at the thought of the AOS being bad.

    Live and Learn!

    A quick cellphone pic of the young tank.

    Happy Tank.jpg

  14. #14
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    So the WiFi saga continues.

    I don't believe it is a "Problem" with the Apex Unit as I have started having issues with my AI Hydra 26's. I believe the issues may be a combination of our neighborhood and perhaps with the Apex Receiver/antenna.

    I'll explain.

    With my AI Hydra lights, they started dropping off network as well. After some experimentation, moving the AP closer, its become clear their receivers are utter crap. I moved my AP to within 8 feet and the lights still would only see 1-2 bars of signal strength, mostly 1 bar, regardless of what channel used. Even within 2 feet of the lights, only 2-3 bars of signal strength detected....

    with the AP in the original location all other wireless devices work flawless in all corners of the house with full bars or just shy of full. Without fail.

    When I scan for available WiFi networks I've counted 20+ on 2.4Ghz... lots of overlap on most channels but 6 is "OK".

    I also have my Apex in a cabinet which will add some interference.

    With the AP in the same room, there is no issue what so ever.

    I quite like the AI Hydra lights and they do work very well. So to solve their issue I am putting an AP in the Den behind the Tank. Ubiquiti have a small but powerful Mesh AP for $100.

    The AP should also fix the signal issues the Apex is having in finding networks.

    It would be nice if the Apex had an external Antennae to increase its reception.

  15. #15
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    Cool

    I thought I would post an update for those interested.

    The proposed changes plus a discovery have resolved my connectivity issues.

    First, The discovery I'm referring to is that the Neptune Apex doesn't play well with an Access Point that has Beam Forming (or what Ubiquiti calls Fast Roaming). When this issue started the firmware update that was done on my Access Point either turned this on or I turned it on as it sounded like a great feature. Either way, as soon as I turned Fast Roaming off my neptune Apex can once again see the wifi network I want! YAY!

    However, the reception is still super weak despite the Access Point being ~15 feet away. Mind you it is in a closet which can hamper signal strength some. Other devices (More modern) have zero signal issues though.

    Second, I installed my Mesh AP in the Den by the tank and this has significantly boosted signal for both the Apex and my AI Hydra 26 lights. These lights have horrifically bad receivers. Even with the AP as close as it is in the picture below, they only see 3 bars of signal strength....

    All in all, problems have been resolved to the best of my ability despite some limitations in the Wifi Receivers in both Apex and the lights.

    I also increased my wifi coverage on my property in the process

    Sorry, forgot to scrape the glass before this shot lol

    Tank.jpg

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