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Thread: Apex Jr. Power Failure Monitoring

  1. #1
    Frequent Visitor rlbannon's Avatar
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    Apex Jr. Power Failure Monitoring

    Earlier today I sent zombie a message. The gist of it was:

    I am trying to figure out a way to jury rig a power failure monitoring device for an Apex Jr. I'm thinking something along the lines of a reed switch like one of these https://www.amazon.com/Recessed-Norm...ustomerReviews connected to a breakout box, activated by a nearby small electromagnet like this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N3387AA...ing=UTF8&psc=1 connected to a power supply like this https://www.amazon.com/TRIAD-MAGNETI...ds=wsu120-0700 (the one I got from Neptune for my 2016 controller) plugged into the wall. When the power fails, the electromagnet fails, opening or closing the reed switch circuit. Then I could create an alarm to notify me of the change in status of the breakout box circuit.

    (BOB-----Reed switch)(Electromagnet-----Power supply-----Wall outlet)

    Do you think something like this would work?

    His response was: Unless your Jr is on a UPS, this will serve no purpose. If it is, the much better way is a 12V power supply wired into an undervoltage relay such as a KRPA-5DG12. This is more reliable and doesnt require exposed 120VAC, which can be dangerous if you don't do it properly. Post a new thread if you need more info as there are probably quite a few people that would be interested in this kind of project.

    I need more info, zombie, so here goes...

    1. I don't know much about relays, so I Googled them. I believe that I learned when a
    regular relay is powered up it closes the high voltage circuit (HV), and allows the HV to open when power is lost, and an undervoltage relay leaves the HV circuit open when powered up, and closes it when power is lost. It seems to me the only big difference between them would be whether the circuit is normally open or normally closed when powered up. Please correct me if I misunderstood. Why would we choose an undervoltage relay over a standard one? I'm not doubting you, just curious since I'm clueless.

    2. What amperage power supply would I need?

    3. How do I hook it all up? My Apex Jr. is on a UPS, so would I do this:

    1. Clip off the plug tip from the power supply, separate and strip the two wires, attach new wire connectors compatible with the relay prongs to the stripped wires, and connect those wires to the low voltage relay prongs
    2. Strip the ends of two fresh wires, attach two more compatible wire connectors, and connect those wires to the low voltage prongs
    3. Strip the other ends of the fresh wires and attach them to the breakout box
    4. Plug in the power supply??

  2. #2
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Undervoltage relay (ANSI 27) is just the nomenclature in my field. Any 12V electromechanical relay serves that purpose. You would do this.

    Purchase a 12V power supply and a barrel to terminal connector like this. The rating of the power supply can likely be 500mA, but you must check it against the load current of the relay coil to make sure. For example a Potter Brumfield KRPA relay draws 1.2W or 100mA @ 12V.

    https://www.adafruit.com/product/368...hoCVyIQAvD_BwE

    Wire the power supply to the coil of a relay with correct polarity. You want an electromechanical "ice cube" style with a 12V coil and either form A or form C contacts. Do not get triac or solid state as these wont be reliable with a breakout box because the load is too small. The ones I use at work for these kinds of applications are KRPA-5DG12 but there are lower cost options you can get as long as the above specifications are met.

    Wire the NO and C terminals of the relay to the breakout box and plug the power supply into the wall. Under normal conditions (relay powered up) the BOB will read closed and it will read OPEN if the relay coul fails or you have a power outage.

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    Wow, I understood none of that.

    I'm a simple kinda guy and my thought is if the power goes out my network is likely to go down as well. Isn't there a program out there somewhere that pings your network every couple minutes and if it doesn't get anything back it can notify you?

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  4. #4
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryeguyy84 View Post
    Wow, I understood none of that.

    I'm a simple kinda guy and my thought is if the power goes out my network is likely to go down as well. Isn't there a program out there somewhere that pings your network every couple minutes and if it doesn't get anything back it can notify you?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    The heartbeat in fusion does that as long as you enable it. It does take 30 minutes to an hour to be notified though. The way around network down is to also connect your router to a UPS.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    The first Heartbeat alert is sent *35-40* minutes after a loss of communications between the Apex and APEX Fusion.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  6. #6
    Frequent Visitor rlbannon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    The rating of the power supply can likely be 500mA, but you must check it against the load current of the relay coil to make sure. For example a Potter Brumfield KRPA relay draws 1.2W or 100mA @ 12V.


    I'm planning to use the KRPA-5DG12 so my Triad at 700mA should work, right?

    Triad Power Supply.jpg



    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Wire the power supply to the coil of a relay with correct polarity.


    I assume the 7 and 2 pins are the electromagnetic coil, is that correct? If so, which pin goes to the positive adapter terminal for correct polarity? Also, what type and size connector do I use for the pins?

    KRPA-5DG12 Relay diagram.jpg Female DC Power Adapter.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Wire the NO and C terminals of the relay to the breakout box


    Is the 1 pin the C terminal and the 6 pin the NO, or is the 3 pin the NO? I'm not sure if the diagram from their data sheet shows the powered or un-powered state.
    Last edited by rlbannon; 08-01-2018 at 09:12. Reason: Additional question

  7. #7
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Anything above the coil draw will work for a power supply, so 700mA is fine.

    That particular relay is not polarity sensitive, so you can wire positive on either. In the industry we use the lower number for positive when not polarity sensitive just for consistency, so you would wire positive to 2 and negative to 7. The common on that relay is 3 and the NO is 6. Electrical components are always shown in an "on the shelf" state, which means the coil is not energized (the alarm/problem case for this application). If you get this relay dont forget to get the 8 pin relay socket as well so you can wire to it (potter brumfield 27E122).

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    The heartbeat in fusion does that as long as you enable it. It does take 30 minutes to an hour to be notified though. The way around network down is to also connect your router to a UPS.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    That's awesome, my Apex was recently offline for a week or so and I didn't notice until my pump started sucking air. My wife accidentally unplugged the relay for topoff water in the basement.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  9. #9
    Frequent Visitor rlbannon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    If you get this relay dont forget to get the 8 pin relay socket as well so you can wire to it (potter brumfield 27E122).
    Those relays are already pretty big, and the socket is huge (and costs another $6). Is there a female connector that could be used on each pin instead of the socket to save space and money? Maybe something like this?

    Wire_Connectors.jpg

  10. #10
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    There are reasonably priced ready-made products which have dry contact outputs suitable for connecting to a BoB. Here is one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001HLAOR0..._t2_B00LFQFC8S
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  11. #11
    Frequent Visitor rlbannon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    There are reasonably priced ready-made products which have dry contact outputs suitable for connecting to a BoB. Here is one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001HLAOR0..._t2_B00LFQFC8S
    That looks perfect. I didn't even know these things existed. So connect the C and NO wires to the BOB and ignore/cap the NC?

  12. #12
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlbannon View Post
    That looks perfect. I didn't even know these things existed. So connect the C and NO wires to the BOB and ignore/cap the NC?
    Yes assuming they actually used ANSI convention in their naming. I find fairly often that Amazon and Ebay electronics don't use "on the shelf" state with their labeling. You want common and whichever wire reads open when the power supply isnt plugged in.

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  13. #13
    Frequent Visitor rlbannon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    There are reasonably priced ready-made products which have dry contact outputs suitable for connecting to a BoB. Here is one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001HLAOR0..._t2_B00LFQFC8S
    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Yes assuming they actually used ANSI convention in their naming. I find fairly often that Amazon and Ebay electronics don't use "on the shelf" state with their labeling. You want common and whichever wire reads open when the power supply isnt plugged in.
    Thank you both very much. This is what I was trying to invent. Wish I had done it first, then I would be rich! RussM, not sure how many Jr users would be interested in power failure monitoring, but a short post about the BOB/Power Loss Sensor combination might make a good addition to one of the Jr stickies, and the Jr manual.

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