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Thread: FMM Troubles

  1. #1
    Hydroponics Guy
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    FMM Troubles

    Wanna see a picture of the inside of an FMM module?

    FMM-3 Inside.jpg

    How about a picture of a fried circuit?

    FMM-3 fried circuit.jpg

    My newest FMM just fried a circuit. I was sitting there and smelled that electrical smell. I went over to the garden and my module FMM-3 was smoking, so I immediately unplugged it from everything. I actually haven't started using it yet. But it was plugged in to a 24v adapter and the Aquabus was plugged into an EB832.



    Of course, I've opened a ticket. But I wonder what that little circuit does (or should I say did)?

    P.S. This was before the Apex software update and the FMM update. Neither update had been applied, so it's not related to the new software versions.
    Last edited by Sanderson234; 08-19-2018 at 04:28. Reason: Added a comment

  2. #2
    Frequent Visitor bigjim's Avatar
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    Please keep us apprised of what you find out. We all know electronics and saltwater don't play nice together yet we add more and more electronics to our saltwater tanks. The idea of some part of my Apex system shorting out (hadn't given it a thought before) and possibly burning my house down scares me.

    Does anyone know of a way to get an Apex to detect something like what happened to the OP so it can send out notifications that a critical event happened which requires immediate response?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
    ... The idea of some part of my Apex system shorting out (hadn't given it a thought before) and possibly burning my house down scares me. ...
    My wife said the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
    Does anyone know of a way to get an Apex to detect something like what happened to the OP so it can send out notifications that a critical event happened which requires immediate response?
    That is an excellent question. Sending in the module today. I will see what they say.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
    The idea of some part of my Apex system shorting out (hadn't given it a thought before) and possibly burning my house down scares me.
    That is really not ideal, however we have so many electronics in our homes that could do the same thing these days, not just the Apex. Take a walk around your house one day and count the items you have that have electronics in them.

    On a side note, at my work we had these old HP monitors (a fair number of them too) and there was a capacitor in them that would blow and smoke all lot, but never caught fire or anything

  5. #5
    Frequent Visitor bigjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidNZ View Post
    That is really not ideal, however we have so many electronics in our homes that could do the same thing these days, not just the Apex. Take a walk around your house one day and count the items you have that have electronics in them.

    On a side note, at my work we had these old HP monitors (a fair number of them too) and there was a capacitor in them that would blow and smoke all lot, but never caught fire or anything
    Our Apex is the only electronic device in our house that is exposed to saltwater. Years ago I had a snail crawl out on the sump return nozzle resulting in saltwater spraying all over the floor including on one of the power supplies for a 250w MH lighting fixture. The poer supply shorted out, got hot to the point you couldn't put your hand on it and started smoking (setting off the smoke detector which woke us up). Following that we moved the MH power supplies to the brick hearth in front of the fireplace. The MH were replaced with LEDs after reading several online stores about problems with MH power supplies. But the idea that such an event (triggred by a saltwater spill) could happen again is a concern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjim View Post
    ... the idea that such an event (triggred by a saltwater spill) could happen again is a concern.
    Until then, I suggest we just install a smoke detector right next to the Apex area of your rig. At least you will get an audible alarm if things get bad enough.

  7. #7
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    I have an AFO fire extinguisher ball positioned at the upper back of each tank's equipment cabinet. If an actual fire starts, this should put it out. There are smoke detectors in the area but none connected directly to Apex; that would be a useful addition.

  8. #8
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    I have an AFO fire extinguisher ball positioned at the upper back of each tank's equipment cabinet. If an actual fire starts, this should put it out. There are smoke detectors in the area but none connected directly to Apex; that would be a useful addition.
    It's pretty easy to pull off. Many smoke detector models have dry contact options and there are quite a few now that are smart home ready so you can completely isolate the alerting from everything saltwater related.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Update

    I had a nice call with Jon, Neptune Support. It turns out the cheapo adapter I was using was not working as I thought it was. It was sending out 24V, but it was only sending 1A instead of the 1.5A the FMM needs. I thought it was at 1.5A, it says 1.5A, but alas, if you look very closely on the front, it states the output ranges as 2~12V, 1.5A and 2~24V, 1A. And do you think I noticed that anywhere? Nope. I have attached 2 pics of the culprit. Needless to say, don't use this piece of crap.

    So the FMM's voltage regulator (previously known as "fried circuit"), eventually overheated from trying to compensate for the adapter. I don't think it would have caught fire, but plastic can be funny sometimes. Either way, I'll have to pay to have it repaired. My bad.

    P.S. Jon will be in Vegas for MACNA. He's the same tech that saved my bacon on that huge RMA I had after a brownout.

    Cheap 24v Adapter - Front.jpgCheap 24v Adapter - Back.jpg

  10. #10
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanderson234 View Post
    I had a nice call with Jon, Neptune Support. It turns out the cheapo adapter I was using was not working as I thought it was. It was sending out 24V, but it was only sending 1A instead of the 1.5A the FMM needs. I thought it was at 1.5A, it says 1.5A, but alas, if you look very closely on the front, it states the output ranges as 2~12V, 1.5A and 2~24V, 1A. And do you think I noticed that anywhere? Nope. I have attached 2 pics of the culprit. Needless to say, don't use this piece of crap.

    Cheap 24v Adapter - Front.jpgCheap 24v Adapter - Back.jpg
    I need to correct this. Power supply's do not send the amperage listed on its rating. They supply whatever amount of current the load requires based on ohms law. The rating on the power supply indicates the maximum load that can be connected without significant voltage drop (this was actually your problem) or overheating the power supply and potentially damaging it.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    I need to correct this. Power supply's do not send the amperage listed on its rating. They supply whatever amount of current the load requires based on ohms law. The rating on the power supply indicates the maximum load that can be connected without significant voltage drop (this was actually your problem) or overheating the power supply and potentially damaging it.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    OK, so you say since the FMM "requested" 1.5A @ 24V, the power supply obliged and subsequently overheated the power supply or the FMM voltage regulator chip or possibly both? Am I following you here, zombie?

  12. #12
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanderson234 View Post
    OK, so you say since the FMM "requested" 1.5A @ 24V, the power supply obliged and subsequently overheated the power supply or the FMM voltage regulator chip or possibly both? Am I following you here, zombie?
    No. When a pump starts it becomes a low resistance load to provide torque to the impeller. This draws extra current than normal and causes a voltage drop across the power supply. Poor quality or low amp rating power supplies drop the voltage more for the same load. When the voltage drops, the current to the pump also drops, which reduces the torque. If the voltage drops enough, the pump can't draw enough current to generate the torque required to actually start, so it just stalls and doesn't pump anything.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    No. When a pump starts it becomes a low resistance load to provide torque to the impeller. This draws extra current than normal and causes a voltage drop across the power supply. Poor quality or low amp rating power supplies drop the voltage more for the same load. When the voltage drops, the current to the pump also drops, which reduces the torque. If the voltage drops enough, the pump can't draw enough current to generate the torque required to actually start, so it just stalls and doesn't pump anything....
    Sorry to drag this out, but I am trying to figure out if the FMM caused the failure or the crappy adapter. Jon and I have already agreed on a course of action so it doesn't make any difference in repair costs.

    I see your point about pump torque and I understand, I can follow your logic (you and RussM are much more knowledgeable than I). But let me remind you, this was an FMM module. It actually had no devices plugged into it. See the attached log of the point of failure:
    FMM-3 Failure.jpg
    Apparently, it failed between 17:45 - 18:00. I checked all the input and outlet logs and nothing else happened at 18:00. My light doesn't come on until 20:00. So I can find no link between the time of failure and any action the Apex was controlling. I suppose the reason for failure was my crappy power quality either way, but I can't apply your logic to an FMM module. And by the way, please note the Amp log shows a constant 0 draw from before and after the event. Only the Wattage log shows anything related to the event. Dunno.

  14. #14
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanderson234 View Post
    Sorry to drag this out, but I am trying to figure out if the FMM caused the failure or the crappy adapter. Jon and I have already agreed on a course of action so it doesn't make any difference in repair costs.

    I see your point about pump torque and I understand, I can follow your logic (you and RussM are much more knowledgeable than I). But let me remind you, this was an FMM module. It actually had no devices plugged into it. See the attached log of the point of failure:
    FMM-3 Failure.jpg
    Apparently, it failed between 17:45 - 18:00. I checked all the input and outlet logs and nothing else happened at 18:00. My light doesn't come on until 20:00. So I can find no link between the time of failure and any action the Apex was controlling. I suppose the reason for failure was my crappy power quality either way, but I can't apply your logic to an FMM module. And by the way, please note the Amp log shows a constant 0 draw from before and after the event. Only the Wattage log shows anything related to the event. Dunno.
    If no PMUP was connected, then probably a severe overvoltage condition that shorted out a component.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    It's pretty easy to pull off. Many smoke detector models have dry contact options and there are quite a few now that are smart home ready so you can completely isolate the alerting from everything saltwater related.
    Slightly OT but I wanted to followup and say thanks for this suggestion. It was indeed pretty darn easy to find an appropriate smoke detector and connect its form a contacts to my Apex breakout box. Works like a charm. The switch relay even continues to operate under battery backup. (I opted not to get another 'smart' device, in this case, but I may reconsider that later.)

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