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Thread: Ato with kalk without atk or sensors

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    Ato with kalk without atk or sensors

    I know this is going to be highly frowned upon but if I limit where things can go wrong here it should not be too bad. I want to estimate about how muck auto top off with kalk to add each day without using any of the expensive sensors to detect an overflow. I would prevent against an overflow by limiting the water in the reservoir. I just want to be able to be gone a week at a time without having to do anything to the tank. Tank is a 30 gallon all in one. Is it possible to use the pmup auto top off pump with the eb832 to tell it to be on for just a few seconds each day and then off again to just add a little bit of water each day. Also trying to stabilize ph swings slightly with this. Thanks for any help.

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    If you want to save money, buy floats instead of the full ATK kit. You dont want to do ATO without level sensing.

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    Thanks Zombie, Would you recommend something like the smart level security by AutoAqua:
    https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/smart...-autoaqua.html

    I guess this would give a little bit more piece of mind that even if the apex was telling the pump to turn on and run if the tank was overfill this sensor would kill it. However i would need to run this through the normal outlet on the eb832 vs through the 24V supply then. I keep my level about an inch from the top of the rimless tank so hopefully this could be positioned that high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Thanks Zombie, Would you recommend something like the smart level security by AutoAqua:
    https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/smart...-autoaqua.html

    I guess this would give a little bit more piece of mind that even if the apex was telling the pump to turn on and run if the tank was overfill this sensor would kill it. However i would need to run this through the normal outlet on the eb832 vs through the 24V supply then. I keep my level about an inch from the top of the rimless tank so hopefully this could be positioned that high.
    No. Just buy a couple floats and hook them up to a breakout box (or DIY your own).

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    I had a bad experience with a float switch in the past that dumped the entire ato container. The breakout with float would cost the same as the AutoAqua would that has an optical eye. Do you really think the breakout and float is the better way?

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    You can also build in a time based failsafe, so you work out that your ATO pump runs for 10 seconds to fill once an hour. You could put the following in your ATO code that activates the pump:

    When On > 000:30 Then OFF

    This will allow it to run for 30 seconds (you would need to specify the time you want for your tank) and if it hits that time, it will turn off the pump and set the pump outlet to off so it will need to be checked and allowed to activate again This is where you get someone to go and take a look at what was going on with the tank and reset the outlet to auto once it has been checked and any potential issue corrected. It will also send you alerts when this happens provided you put the following in your email code:

    If Error OUTLETNAME Then ON

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    Thanks! I assume you could probably also do this with the eb832 and monitor how much energy it used to know if it got stuck on. Also i assume you mean de-activates the pump in the ATO code?

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    We don't have the EBB832 down here in NZ, so no power monitoring. But I believe from what I have read here that you can only power monitor the 110V outlets and not the 1Link / 24VDC ports. (Again, I could be wrong with this)

    But if you are telling the pump to shut off based on the time running to indicate a stuck float, and it still stays on then, that is a fault with the power going to it from the EB832 and even power monitoring wouldn't be able to turn that off if the "when on" statement doesn't work, so I personally don't see a use for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    I had a bad experience with a float switch in the past that dumped the entire ato container. The breakout with float would cost the same as the AutoAqua would that has an optical eye. Do you really think the breakout and float is the better way?
    Yes. Opticals can fail just as easily as a float with a snail guard can. You need to design your programming such that it is protected against a float switch failure.

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    Regardless of what ATO you use, you should know a maximum volume that would be added each day or even time period and set OSC or some timing mechanism on the system to add only slightly more water, kalk, etc than typical use. This said, it's important to really have a good understanding of manual top off before configuring auto because the volume can change greatly each day based on temperature, humidity and air flow over the tank. For this same reason it's almost impossible to get ATO working without feedback from a sensor, like optical, float or both, when you mix in Kalk especially with 30 gal and a PMUP your pH can rise very rapidly. You could try to restrict the flow, but, Kalk will quickly clog in your restrictor and even a float valve in your sump. Its best to have the Kalk enter the system with the longest path back to the optical/float/etc to get rid of lots of false readings, however, it's just as important to have backup(s) to stop a Kalk disaster. It's not a disaster if no Kalk flows, just a cleaning and manual top off, but, the other way could equal pH > 9 and salinity <30 in only a minute or so of a run away PMUP in a 30.

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    Seems like the setup with the AutoAqua sensor will not work. The problem is that it takes 5 minutes when you plug it in to calibrate before it starts to sense. In the meantime the pump continues to run in these 5 minutes so if the level is already over the sensor the pump will continue to run and not be sensed by the auto aqua sensor. Seems this is a poor design and the outlet should remain off until after the calibration has completed. I may have to use a different method for sensing the water level and reading this back to the apex to determine if the water level is to high to turn the pump on and dose. Any suggestions?

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    Looks like i can use the OS-1 optical sensor but a FMM is required so your almost to the cost of what the atk cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Looks like i can use the OS-1 optical sensor but a FMM is required so your almost to the cost of what the atk cost.
    If you want to save money, just use a float and breakout box. I have had two floats fail in the last 6 years of reefing and one was used when I got it. The way I programmed my ATO, the failure had zero effect on the tank since it only overfilled by 1/2 gallon on a 125 gallon tank.

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    What floats do you recommend? I think running two right next to each other would be a nice redundancy if one ended up failing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    What floats do you recommend? I think running two right next to each other would be a nice redundancy if one ended up failing.
    Madison are the most reliable but they dont come with a mount or nut, which makes them fairly pricey. The best low cost option I have found is the marine depot one that comes with a nice mount with a snail guard. I used those on my latest build.

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    If it's all about cost/risk a simple float valve coupled with a decent timed APEX ATO pump (slower the better with 30 gal display) gets the job done with little risk other than the float clogging with Kalk and having to clean it if you see low sump or high salinity. Amazon has clamp on float valves for $13 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00OOY2JXO...537505901&sr=3

    This way if you set your timer to worst case add 20% too much (assuming 1/2 gal or less per day ATO) your sump is low by 1/2 gal cause the float clogged or you overfill by 13oz in a 24 hour period.

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