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Thread: Not sure how it's possible to have 3 on / off in 23 minutes with a defer 180:00

  1. #1
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    Not sure how it's possible to have 3 on / off in 23 minutes with a defer 180:00

    My code is pretty simple:

    Virtual Outlet Name: V_NO-ATO-3HR
    Set ON
    If Output ATO-SOLENOID = ON Then OFF
    Defer 180:00 Then ON

    Today I got:
    3 2018-09-17 17:16:53 -0500 ON If Output V_NO-ATO-3HR = ON Then ON
    4 2018-09-17 17:36:35 -0500 ON Set OFF
    5 2018-09-17 17:36:37 -0500 ON If Output V_NO-ATO-3HR = ON Then ON
    6 2018-09-17 17:40:33 -0500 ON Set OFF
    7 2018-09-17 17:40:35 -0500 ON If Output V_NO-ATO-3HR = ON Then ON
    8 2018-09-17 17:40:55 -0500 OFF Set OFF
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  2. #2
    Frequent Visitor Todd's Avatar
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    Are you using V_NO-ATO-3HR to control ATO-SOLENOID? If so, you have a circular reference where each outlet is trying to control the other. This can cause wonky behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    Are you using V_NO-ATO-3HR to control ATO-SOLENOID? If so, you have a circular reference where each outlet is trying to control the other. This can cause wonky behavior.
    Nope just an alert that ATO hasn’t run for 3 hours which means the optical is dirty.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    Are you using V_NO-ATO-3HR to control ATO-SOLENOID? If so, you have a circular reference where each outlet is trying to control the other. This can cause wonky behavior.
    I program mission critical devices for a living, so I never would put in a circular reference, but, after reading your post, I had to try it, as I wanted to see what Apex did, crash, or whatever. It was interesting, it filled 70 pages of logs in less than a minute, it took about an hour to finishing filling pages after being circular for less than a minute before I removed it.

    Have you ever done a circular reference? Did you see the same results or something different? Sorry kind of off topic, but, I'm just inquisitive.

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    Frequent Visitor Todd's Avatar
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    While not a programmer by profession, I do have some experience and am always vigilant about it. It has come up at times here on the board though. It is one of the things I suspect when people describe aberrant Apex behavior. One of the others is duplicate names.

    I don't have any other ideas on the original issue, but looking at your ATO code I have a few comments:

    The Set OFF isnt really doing anything as the OSC overrides it since it has both ON and OFF states.

    I assume that the HI an LO switches are fail-safe points rather than nominal control points since they override the OSC.

    The DEFER statements apply to the entire outlet, so they will skew the OSC timing.


    Since the Apex executes top to bottom, the general approach is to start with the desired nominal behavior and add overrides in increasing priority.

    You state that the purpose of V_NO-ATO-3HR is to check for fouled optical switches, but you are checking the status of the ATO. However, that makes me think that the switches are not being used as failsafes. Can you describe the intended operation of the ATO?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd View Post
    While not a programmer by profession, I do have some experience and am always vigilant about it. It has come up at times here on the board though. It is one of the things I suspect when people describe aberrant Apex behavior. One of the others is duplicate names.

    I don't have any other ideas on the original issue, but looking at your ATO code I have a few comments:

    The Set OFF isnt really doing anything as the OSC overrides it since it has both ON and OFF states.

    I assume that the HI an LO switches are fail-safe points rather than nominal control points since they override the OSC.

    The DEFER statements apply to the entire outlet, so they will skew the OSC timing.


    Since the Apex executes top to bottom, the general approach is to start with the desired nominal behavior and add overrides in increasing priority.
    1st thanks for your constructive and informative input.

    Yep, now that I tried a circular reference, to see what happens, I'll even use more vigilance in all coding.

    Much like the ON/OFF 3x on the 180 min defer on the virtual outlet, sometimes these hobby devices don't work as planned, so the SET OFF is just a bit of overkill to keep the solenoid off, as no ATO is OK but, too much ATO is a killer.

    The HI is a fail safe, but, the LOW is an active, since no tank has 7/24/365 predictable evaporation. The OSC is ~20% greater than the largest day I have seen (5.6 Gal on a 150G tank), the LOW turns it off, so it's the primary, with OSC being 2nd line of defense and HI being the !@$# hit the fan. These all address the primary risk of ATO which is too much of a good thing.

    The topic of the thread is to address the more common, non killer which is the ATK optical getting a film of Kalk on it and failing to open, so LOW stays closed and the solenoid never opens. I opened a case with Neptune systems and they say don't run Kalk, which IMHO is a bit crazy for an ATO as I was running the same basic system but, OSC a 120v outlet for Smart ATO, where the optic (single) was on one side of the sump and the delivery(Solenoid) was on the other. My solution was to ask Neptune for a link to order a spare magnet (expensive $59.95 plus $15.00 shipping - but hopefully worth it). I moved the float valve to the pump side of the sump so the Kalk has to make it's way through the tank, filter sock, skimmer to be seen by the optic, thus far only 3 days (but better than before 12-24 hours), I have had no issues with having to clean the LOW optic. So, the v-outlet will go back to idle (hopefully) and only infrequently come into play. I'd still like to understand why the 3 hits, and only occasionally, but, after the split and the ATO solution with split ATK I won't have as much opportunity to see it an debug it.

    Lastly I have the defer to insure any splashing in the sump doesn't allow the solenoid to open the optics have to be "open" for at least 8 seconds of the 10 second OSC, and then when the solenoid opens I want it to stay open for 20 seconds, the logs indicate the defer is doing exactly what I expect.

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