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Thread: Running atk without float valve?

  1. #1
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    Running atk without float valve?

    I have a tight area that i am contemplating using the atk. Are you able to remove the float valve and still use the atk as usual? If i do this I may add another sensor or two for redundancy. One at a higher level in the tank before it overflows above the water line and also maybe one in the reservoir. On the flip side do they make other sizes of floats that i could just attach and still get the usability? I would need the entire sensor unit to fit in an area of 4.25"x3.5" and depth does not really matter. Is it possible to deform the float and flatten it to get it to work? Just trying to brainstorm some ideas here. Attached is the picture of my situation. As you can see i dont have much area to work in as this is in all in one system. The 90 degree elbow may also be in the way but i currently do not have an atk to compare the size to. Please let me know your thoughts and suggestions.
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  2. #2
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    You can remove the float and it will still operate correctly. You just lose the oh sh!t mechanical failsafe.

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    Do you know if there is another mechanical float that i could replace this one with that would fit in the space i need it to or am i better off just adding two more optical sensors? One above water line that when it is reached the pump is killed and on in the reservoir that if reached kills the pump as well? Are you able to control the pump the same way through the eb832 outlets as the 24V supply? Meaning that if a sensor is tripped can you trigger the 24V supply to just be killed and not supply power to the pmup any longer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Do you know if there is another mechanical float that i could replace this one with that would fit in the space i need it to or am i better off just adding two more optical sensors? One above water line that when it is reached the pump is killed and on in the reservoir that if reached kills the pump as well? Are you able to control the pump the same way through the eb832 outlets as the 24V supply? Meaning that if a sensor is tripped can you trigger the 24V supply to just be killed and not supply power to the pmup any longer?
    Gonna be hard to find a mechanical float that will fit that space. I would actually use a float switch connected to a breakout box of you want a third layer of safety and you can't find a mechanical float. That way the failsafe is completely independent of the FMM. You can use the EB832 outlet instead of the FMM one if you want.

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  5. #5
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    I think I will use the eb832 24V outlet but does this still allow you to kill power to the 24V outlets if a sensor reads a high level?
    Also, Can the mechanical float be detached and moved elsewhere in the tank from the other two optical sensors? I could have the water enter through this float in the main part of the tank, so that the mechanical float would shut off before it overflowed the edge, but have the optical sensors in the filter area.

  6. #6
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    You could move the float, but you would either need magnetic mounts for the sensors and use the ATK mount for the float or you would need a magnetic or clip on mount for the float to move that and keep the optical sensors on the mount that comes with.

    You can shut off the pump for any condition you want. The default task turns it off if either sensor is covered or the pump runs longer than 5 minutes, but you can customize it however you want.

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    I think I will drill a hole through the Back "false" wall of the all in one tank that separates the filtration from the main part of the tank. Looks like there is a decent "bulkhead" on the float so it should seal well as long as I get the float at the correct height the first time around. Does this sound like a good idea?

    Also on a side note is it possible to remove the pmup and use a peristaltic pump with this system to do the top offs? It seems like there is alot of bad feedback about the pump burning up, but i have not saw anyone else try to interface a different pump with the atk setup/sensors?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    I think I will drill a hole through the Back "false" wall of the all in one tank that separates the filtration from the main part of the tank. Looks like there is a decent "bulkhead" on the float so it should seal well as long as I get the float at the correct height the first time around. Does this sound like a good idea?

    Also on a side note is it possible to remove the pmup and use a peristaltic pump with this system to do the top offs? It seems like there is alot of bad feedback about the pump burning up, but i have not saw anyone else try to interface a different pump with the atk setup/sensors?
    You could use it as a bulkhead, but I would purchase a gasket to make sure it fully seals.

    You can use any pump you want. I use a litermeter3 for my ATO pump which is nearly bulletproof and a great flow rate. If you go that route, you would save some money by buying (2) OS-1 with magnetic mount, an FMM, and a float valve separately.

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  9. #9
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    Looks like this would save about $30 without the pmup. The only reason I would think about using the pmup would be to use the 24V output on the energy bar to free up another outlet. I already have a BRS 50ml/min peristaltic. In your opinion how reliable are the pmup's? My topoff is about 500ml a day. Im guessing the pmup are more reliable at these smaller doses vs toping off large amounts at one time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Looks like this would save about $30 without the pmup. The only reason I would think about using the pmup would be to use the 24V output on the energy bar to free up another outlet. I already have a BRS 50ml/min peristaltic. In your opinion how reliable are the pmup's? My topoff is about 500ml a day. Im guessing the pmup are more reliable at these smaller doses vs toping off large amounts at one time.
    Hard to tell since there os always a bias in reviews that people with problems are more likely to complain than someone is to say it worked perfect, but from what I gather the BRS peri pump is more reliable especially when used in conjunction with kalk. The PMUP doesn't have a great track record with kalk (I am assuming at least part of this is users not elevating it an inch or two above the bottom).

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  11. #11
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    Thanks for the input. I think I will just get the FMM and a few optical sensors and mechanical float then and start setting this up with the BRS pump. Is there any of the float switches that move up and down a plunger that are compatible with the FMM or any DIYs that people have did? This is the switch im talking about:
    https://www.mcmaster.com/50195k11

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Thanks for the input. I think I will just get the FMM and a few optical sensors and mechanical float then and start setting this up with the BRS pump. Is there any of the float switches that move up and down a plunger that are compatible with the FMM or any DIYs that people have did? This is the switch im talking about:
    https://www.mcmaster.com/50195k11
    Floats switches can only be connected to a breakout box (you can DIY these for about $10). The FMM can only be used currently for optical sensors, flow meters, or leak detectors.

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    I bit the bullet and ended up getting the atk. It looks like I should change it to stand alone mode right away. Is there any other things that I should change while I am setting it up? Also does this code look correct for dosing 1000ml over the 24hr period and dose it every 30 minutes with it turning off if the pH is above 8.35:

    Fallback OFF
    OSC 000:00/000:25/029:35 Then ON
    If pH > 8.35 Then OFF

    I will also have an additional optical sensor that I want to cut the pump off if the tank was nearing overflowing and also would like to add into the code that if the pump is on for more than 3 minutes it would cut the power to it as well. How would I add this code in?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    I bit the bullet and ended up getting the atk. It looks like I should change it to stand alone mode right away. Is there any other things that I should change while I am setting it up? Also does this code look correct for dosing 1000ml over the 24hr period and dose it every 30 minutes with it turning off if the pH is above 8.35:

    Fallback OFF
    OSC 000:00/000:25/029:35 Then ON
    If pH > 8.35 Then OFF

    I will also have an additional optical sensor that I want to cut the pump off if the tank was nearing overflowing and also would like to add into the code that if the pump is on for more than 3 minutes it would cut the power to it as well. How would I add this code in?
    You want to take the ATK out of standalone so you can access the optical states.

    Your code is correct for the starting point, but you need to add the optical states in.

    If Optical1Name CLOSED Then OFF
    If Optical2Name CLOSED Then OFF


    When using an OSC based code, you need to use a VO to detect long runs since the OSC limits the amount of pumping time anyway. You could do something like this.

    ATOstuck
    Set OFF
    If Optical1Name OPEN Then ON
    Defer 120:00 Then ON

    Add

    If Output ATOstuck = ON Then OFF

    To the pump code and the same but Then ON to your email. This will stop the ATO and alert you if it uses the full 25 seconds 4 doses in a row.

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    Thanks! Do you think the OSC way of programming this is the safer bet vs. just using the low optical sensor to turn the ato on? Im guessing this is how the atk usually works by using the low optical sensor to turn the pump on and the high optical sensor to turn the pump off? I guess I could use it in this way because I have the second optical high sensor that will kill the pump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Thanks! Do you think the OSC way of programming this is the safer bet vs. just using the low optical sensor to turn the ato on? Im guessing this is how the atk usually works by using the low optical sensor to turn the pump on and the high optical sensor to turn the pump off? I guess I could use it in this way because I have the second optical high sensor that will kill the pump.
    OSC is more useful for kalk. If you were just doing RODI, the task gives an adequate code without adjustment, but you want to limit how much it can dump much tighter with kalk, which requires some customization.

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    This may be a dumb question but do you need to supply power to the fmm with the provided power supply in the atk? I have it daisy chained. I’m guessing you only need to supply power to it if you are using it to power the pump but I’m using the 24v on the eb832 for power.

  18. #18
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Your guess is correct.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Ok I am going through the programming now:
    Naming Convention:
    Oplow= Low level sensor on atk magnet
    OpHigh= High Level sensor on atk magnet
    OpOver= Secondary optical sensor near the front of the tank used for preventing the tank from overflowing

    This is what I have for the pump code:
    Fallback OFF
    OSC 000:00/000:25/029:35 Then ON
    If pH > 8.35 Then OFF
    If OpLow CLOSED Then OFF
    If OpHigh CLOSED Then OFF
    If OpOver CLOSED Then OFF
    If Output ATOstuck = ON Then OFF

    Does this code look correct for the pmup? My other question is how does the apex analyze code? I am used to running robots at work and programming them and they read one line of code at a time. In essence if the first criteria is not met does the apex move on to the next line? If a criteria is not met and it still moves on is it scanning the rest of the code at a certain time interval waiting for a "flag" (optical sensor high reading).

    I have created the VO with the code you used above:
    ATOstuck
    Set OFF
    If OpLow OPEN Then ON
    Defer 120:00 Then ON

    I assume this code is watching the low level sensor? And if the low level sensor has not been closed in a certain amount of time the pmup would then be turned off. How do you know this will turn off if it uses the 4 25 second doses in a row? I do not see this in this portion of code. Also why would you want to defer for 120 minutes? Sorry about all of the questions. If there is one piece of code that needs to be correct though this is the one.



  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Ok I am going through the programming now:
    Naming Convention:
    Oplow= Low level sensor on atk magnet
    OpHigh= High Level sensor on atk magnet
    OpOver= Secondary optical sensor near the front of the tank used for preventing the tank from overflowing

    This is what I have for the pump code:
    Fallback OFF
    OSC 000:00/000:25/029:35 Then ON
    If pH > 8.35 Then OFF
    If OpLow CLOSED Then OFF
    If OpHigh CLOSED Then OFF
    If OpOver CLOSED Then OFF
    If Output ATOstuck = ON Then OFF

    Does this code look correct for the pmup? My other question is how does the apex analyze code? I am used to running robots at work and programming them and they read one line of code at a time. In essence if the first criteria is not met does the apex move on to the next line? If a criteria is not met and it still moves on is it scanning the rest of the code at a certain time interval waiting for a "flag" (optical sensor high reading).

    I have created the VO with the code you used above:
    ATOstuck
    Set OFF
    If OpLow OPEN Then ON
    Defer 120:00 Then ON

    I assume this code is watching the low level sensor? And if the low level sensor has not been closed in a certain amount of time the pmup would then be turned off. How do you know this will turn off if it uses the 4 25 second doses in a row? I do not see this in this portion of code. Also why would you want to defer for 120 minutes? Sorry about all of the questions. If there is one piece of code that needs to be correct though this is the one.


    The apex evaluates like a script. It goes through lines one by one to check if they are true and the last true line wins.

    What you have shown looks good. The 120 defer is saying if the low switch has been open for 120 minutes, you can be certain it has tried to dose the full 25 seconds for 4 doses in a row (unless one of the two higher sensors happened to be closed when the low read open, which is also an issue you want to check on).

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    How would you suggest i check the other sensors? Should I also add this to the virtual outlet code to say:
    ATOstuck
    Set OFF
    If OpLow OPEN Then ON
    Defer 120:00 Then ON
    If OpHigh Closed Then ON
    If OpOver Closed Then ON

    So that if the high level sensors are triggered it would loop back and stop the pump in the pump code?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    How would you suggest i check the other sensors? Should I also add this to the virtual outlet code to say:
    ATOstuck
    Set OFF
    If OpLow OPEN Then ON
    Defer 120:00 Then ON
    If OpHigh Closed Then ON
    If OpOver Closed Then ON

    So that if the high level sensors are triggered it would loop back and stop the pump in the pump code?
    I would leave the ATO stuck with just the normal level sensor and and send separate alerts for the other two sensors so it's easier to troubleshoot. Your ATO code already turns off if either of those are covered.

    If you turn your return off for feedings and either of the two higher level sensors get covered when it's off, use this format for an alert VO

    HighH2O
    Set OFF
    If SwitchName CLOSED Then ON
    If Output ReturnName = OFF Then OFF
    Defer 005:00 Then ON

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  23. #23
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    Since this is an all in one tank i never turn the pump off and if it does go off the water level decreases in the main portion of the tank where OpOver is located. Ive been measuring my evaporation rate pretty consistently at about 600mL a day. I think I will change the OSC to dose this 600mL over the course of the day once an hour and see if my levels increases or decrease.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordanM View Post
    Since this is an all in one tank i never turn the pump off and if it does go off the water level decreases in the main portion of the tank where OpOver is located. Ive been measuring my evaporation rate pretty consistently at about 600mL a day. I think I will change the OSC to dose this 600mL over the course of the day once an hour and see if my levels increases or decrease.
    1.5 times normal evaporation tends to be the sweet spot for OSC based code. If you push it too close to actual evap levels, it makes it nearly impossible to use diagnostics like the ATOstuck VO. I would use 900 ml per day in the OSC.

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    Thanks for the tip! I assume some water will drain out of the line as well and it will need a small amount to prime at the beginning as well. Regardless i think that if it did overshoot having two high level sensors should be able to do the job and turn the pump off. I still have to mount the float as well and that will make for another safety stop.

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