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Thread: New DOS Setup for AWC

  1. #1
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    New DOS Setup for AWC

    I just purchased a DOS and connected the tubing as shown for AWC. Now it wants me to calibrate the new DOS and the second head spins the wrong way. Do I need to change the tubes to calibrate and then switch them back or is there an easier way to calibrate without changing the tubes? Thank you!

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    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Calibrate and the priming buttons only go in the direction of the arrows. I have mine configured so they both "add"

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    This caused me no end of confusion ! Calibrate 1st with short tubing. Then put longer tubing on that's suits your water container for the auto water change it doesn't affect the calibration. Pump heads do spin different ways for the calibration to the auto water change. I spent hours thinking something was faulty. When you press prime it pulls your waste water back towards your tank.

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    If I am understanding your question correctly, you would always want to calibrate with the tubing you are going to use. Small differences in diameter could impact the amount of water moved. The pumps only go on one direction, from my understanding. The end result is one pump is pulling water from the tank and then disposing of it, while the other is pulling water from the reservoir and depositing it in the sump. The pumps should be in the same direction all the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lefkonj View Post
    If I am understanding your question correctly, you would always want to calibrate with the tubing you are going to use. Small differences in diameter could impact the amount of water moved. The pumps only go on one direction, from my understanding. The end result is one pump is pulling water from the tank and then disposing of it, while the other is pulling water from the reservoir and depositing it in the sump. The pumps should be in the same direction all the time.
    Calibration is independent of the tubing connected to the DOS. If you change a head, that tubing could be a slightly different diameter and won't result in the same calibration.

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    According to the DOS instructions, it says to hookup the tubes for AWS as shown in the picture.



    I would need to put water in the waste container and calibrate it backwards...flowing from the waste container into the tank as the right pump turns clockwise when calibrating. Then I guess it turns counterclockwise for the AWS. I wonder if the calibration would still be correct glowing the other way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddrueckh View Post
    According to the DOS instructions, it says to hookup the tubes for AWS as shown in the picture.



    I would need to put water in the waste container and calibrate it backwards...flowing from the waste container into the tank as the right pump turns clockwise when calibrating. Then I guess it turns counterclockwise for the AWS. I wonder if the calibration would still be correct glowing the other way.
    Calibration is not directionally dependent so you can do it that way if you want. But as I mentioned before, it's annoying if you set it up so OSW runs in reverse. If you run everything so that they both "add" you don't need to change tubing around and the prime buttons actually work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Calibration is not directionally dependent so you can do it that way if you want. But as I mentioned before, it's annoying if you set it up so OSW runs in reverse. If you run everything so that they both "add" you don't need to change tubing around and the prime buttons actually work.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Thank you for the clarification. If I use the tasks to set it up, can I just change it to “add” after?


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    Quote Originally Posted by ddrueckh View Post
    Thank you for the clarification. If I use the tasks to set it up, can I just change it to “add” after?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Yes.

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    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefkonj View Post
    The pumps only go on one direction, from my understanding. The end result is one pump is pulling water from the tank and then disposing of it, while the other is pulling water from the reservoir and depositing it in the sump. The pumps should be in the same direction all the time.
    This is incorrect. The DŌS pumps can be driven in either direction. The direction is configurable in both the DŌS schedule wizard ("Add" & "Remove") and in DŌS profiles ("Forward & "Reverse").

    Add/Forward = clockwise rotation, Remove/Reverse = counterclockwise rotation.

    The programming generated by the DŌS AWC Task and the programming used AWC section of the DŌS Get Started Guide are built around this capability... old tank water is taken from the tank system using the Remove/Reverse direction. And in the DŌS activity log, new saltwater is logged as being added and old tank water is logged as removed... it's logical. Add adds new water, Remove removes old water. It's illogical to setup your system so that it "Adds" old/waste water to the drain or waste containing, no?

    Calibration is applicable for either direction... it does not change with the direction of the pump. It's a simple matter to swap the two tubes on the pump being used for Remove as needed for initial calibration, then swap them back for normal operation.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Learn something new every day. Never saw this piece of the programming just following the arrows that are on the physical product.

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    I'm in the process of upgrading from my previous Apex to the 2016 model in hopes Apex releases the water testing system in the near future.

    In the meantime, I had a few questions about the AWC process.

    I currently have a Tunze ATO, but will probably just purchase the apex unit as long as I'm going all in on a new controller system.

    Say you program the DOS to do 2-gallon water changes per day between a certain period of time...


    How exactly is that being accomplished?

    Is it pulling 2-gallons out while at the same time adding 2-gallons of new water?
    Or does it pull 2-gallons out first, and then add 2-gallons of new water so you aren't co-mingling the two?

    What type of concerns do you need to have with your ATO? I would assume if it's taking 2-gallons out while putting 2-gallons in, it should remain pretty level in the sump. However, if it pulls 2-gallons out first, and then adds two more gallons back in (like a traditional water change), how do you keep the ATO from freaking out?

    Does the DOS have to be above the new seawater container and the sump? I would assume so to prevent an accidental siphon.

    What distances and head heights can you get away with the DOS?

    Thanks in advance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    I'm in the process of upgrading from my previous Apex to the 2016 model in hopes Apex releases the water testing system in the near future.

    In the meantime, I had a few questions about the AWC process.

    I currently have a Tunze ATO, but will probably just purchase the apex unit as long as I'm going all in on a new controller system.

    Say you program the DOS to do 2-gallon water changes per day between a certain period of time...


    How exactly is that being accomplished?

    Is it pulling 2-gallons out while at the same time adding 2-gallons of new water?
    Or does it pull 2-gallons out first, and then add 2-gallons of new water so you aren't co-mingling the two?

    What type of concerns do you need to have with your ATO? I would assume if it's taking 2-gallons out while putting 2-gallons in, it should remain pretty level in the sump. However, if it pulls 2-gallons out first, and then adds two more gallons back in (like a traditional water change), how do you keep the ATO from freaking out?

    Does the DOS have to be above the new seawater container and the sump? I would assume so to prevent an accidental siphon.

    What distances and head heights can you get away with the DOS?

    Thanks in advance!
    The most stable and consistent way would be to have it continuously change over 24 hours each day. Removing and then adding is slightly more efficient for nutrient removal, but to do so, you would need to disable your ATO during that time period either by using an if time statement or using profiles on the DOS and turning the ATO off when the DOS is off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    The most stable and consistent way would be to have it continuously change over 24 hours each day. Removing and then adding is slightly more efficient for nutrient removal, but to do so, you would need to disable your ATO during that time period either by using an if time statement or using profiles on the DOS and turning the ATO off when the DOS is off.

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    Thanks for the info, Zombie.

    That's what I figured... It doesn't make sense to me to be putting water in and pulling water out at the same as you're probably "blending" a little of both. Probably not a significant difference, but if you're doing a water change to add elements back in and export nutrients, seems to make the most sense to pull out your 2 gallons or whatever, keep the ATO off, and then add your 2 gallons back in, and then turn on the ATO back on.

    2 gallons a day, Monday through Friday would be ideal for me as I'm generally shooting for 10 gallons a week in my 112 gallon system. It's in my office so I'd prefer to do it those days in case something goes sideways, as there's always someone here.

    If I can determine how long it takes to remove 2 gallons and add 2 gallons, could I simply set the DOS up to do it's thing for that specified amount of time and then have the ATO turned off during that period?

    How long do you think it takes to move 2 gallons with a DOS in either direction?
    I get quite a bit of evap so I can't leave the ATO off too long...

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    Check my math please

    DOS Specs: https://www.neptunesystems.com/dos/

    If the DOS can move up to 250 ml/minute.
    And there's around 3800 ml in a gallon.
    Does that mean it should be able to move a gallon in 15 mins?
    If that is correct, and I wanted to move 2 gallons out and then 2 gallons back (won't drop my sump low enough to matter), then I should be able export 2 gallons, followed by importing two gallons in about an hour?

    Did I work that out correctly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    Thanks for the info, Zombie.

    That's what I figured... It doesn't make sense to me to be putting water in and pulling water out at the same as you're probably "blending" a little of both. Probably not a significant difference, but if you're doing a water change to add elements back in and export nutrients, seems to make the most sense to pull out your 2 gallons or whatever, keep the ATO off, and then add your 2 gallons back in, and then turn on the ATO back on.

    2 gallons a day, Monday through Friday would be ideal for me as I'm generally shooting for 10 gallons a week in my 112 gallon system. It's in my office so I'd prefer to do it those days in case something goes sideways, as there's always someone here.

    If I can determine how long it takes to remove 2 gallons and add 2 gallons, could I simply set the DOS up to do it's thing for that specified amount of time and then have the ATO turned off during that period?

    How long do you think it takes to move 2 gallons with a DOS in either direction?
    I get quite a bit of evap so I can't leave the ATO off too long...
    Blending is almost neglegable as long as the remove is upstream of the add. IMO the ease of continuous outweighs the need to use slightly more saltwater.

    Below assumes a 100 gallon tank.

    A continuous change of 2 gallon per day that doses every minute will have 86.9% of the original water after 1 week

    A 2 gallon add then remove each day will have 86.8% of the original water after 1 week.

    A 14 gallon change 1 day per week will have 86.0% of the original water.


    As you can see the extra amount of saltwater required for a continuous vs a daily add then remove is extremely minimal and I would gladly spend the extra 2 dollars a month on saltwater to simplify the code and just do continuous. Particularly because there is the added benefit of more consistency in water parameters.

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    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Concurrent water changing also has the advantage of no affect on sump water level - it doesn’t change as the same amount is concurrently added and removed. So you need not add any extra programming to stop skimmer or ATO during the AWC.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Blending is almost neglegable as long as the remove is upstream of the add. IMO the ease of continuous outweighs the need to use slightly more saltwater.

    Below assumes a 100 gallon tank.

    A continuous change of 2 gallon per day that doses every minute will have 86.9% of the original water after 1 week

    A 2 gallon add then remove each day will have 86.8% of the original water after 1 week.

    A 14 gallon change 1 day per week will have 86.0% of the original water.


    As you can see the extra amount of saltwater required for a continuous vs a daily add then remove is extremely minimal and I would gladly spend the extra 2 dollars a month on saltwater to simplify the code and just do continuous. Particularly because there is the added benefit of more consistency in water parameters.

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    Interesting... It appears that there is only a minute difference between continuous and a daily add/delete. Certain not worth going through the extra programming steps to get that extra tenth of a percent.

    How did you come up with that calculation, Zombie?
    I wouldn't have even known where to begin to get those numbers

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    Interesting... It appears that there is only a minute difference between continuous and a daily add/delete. Certain not worth going through the extra programming steps to get that extra tenth of a percent.

    How did you come up with that calculation, Zombie?
    I wouldn't have even known where to begin to get those numbers
    It's actually pretty simple. You calculate the amount of water used in each dose and then use that to determine the percentage of water that would be left remaining after a single dose. Then take that percentage and take it to the power of the number of doses in the timeframe.

    Ex 1 min doses for 2 gallon per day is 5.56 ml per dose. (400000-5.56)/400000 = 0.999986 percent remaining. 0.999986^(60*24*7)=86.9% remaining after one week.

    1 minute doses (the DOS will actually probably do 10 minute is ones) uses 1% more saltwater than daily doses to remove the same amount of nutrients in the system.

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    How would a typical program looks like for this scenario you suggest here Zombie? I just bought the DOS for this purpose and have no clue where to start. I am trying to get 7.5 gallons in, and 7.5 gallons out over a 7 day period. Sample code will be greatly appreciated. Note: I have an Apex ATO installed in my tank.
    When You're a NOOB, You need lots of help all the time

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2mk View Post
    How would a typical program looks like for this scenario you suggest here Zombie? I just bought the DOS for this purpose and have no clue where to start. I am trying to get 7.5 gallons in, and 7.5 gallons out over a 7 day period. Sample code will be greatly appreciated. Note: I have an Apex ATO installed in my tank.
    I would just set both add and remove to 4300 ml over 24 hours with the wizard and let it do its thing.

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    thanks. Once I have it figured out how to set it up first and then take you suggestions to do it.
    When You're a NOOB, You need lots of help all the time

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddrueckh View Post
    According to the DOS instructions, it says to hookup the tubes for AWS as shown in the picture.



    I would need to put water in the waste container and calibrate it backwards...flowing from the waste container into the tank as the right pump turns clockwise when calibrating. Then I guess it turns counterclockwise for the AWS. I wonder if the calibration would still be correct glowing the other way.


    I have my DOS set up as shown in the above picture for AWC. Everything works correctly. Today I attempted to use right pump to manually remove some water from my sump by moving the slider to on and the pump ran clockwise instead of counterclockwise. Is this correct? My code is below. Is there a way to manually make the pump run counterclockwise?

    [Right Pump]
    Fallback OFF
    If NSWLo OPEN Then OFF
    tdata 00:00:00,1,3,2,17,2,88,143,2,79,2,28,10,0

    [Left pump]
    Fallback OFF
    If NSWLo OPEN Then OFF
    tdata 00:00:00,1,19,2,17,2,88,143,2,79,2,28,10,0

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesreich View Post
    I have my DOS set up as shown in the above picture for AWC. Everything works correctly. Today I attempted to use right pump to manually remove some water from my sump by moving the slider to on and the pump ran clockwise instead of counterclockwise. Is this correct? My code is below. Is there a way to manually make the pump run counterclockwise?

    [Right Pump]
    Fallback OFF
    If NSWLo OPEN Then OFF
    tdata 00:00:00,1,3,2,17,2,88,143,2,79,2,28,10,0

    [Left pump]
    Fallback OFF
    If NSWLo OPEN Then OFF
    tdata 00:00:00,1,19,2,17,2,88,143,2,79,2,28,10,0
    The Neptune recommendation to have one add and one remove is utterly stupid IMO. Calibration, priming, and manual ON all only do forward direction. I would suggest rerouting your tubing so both run clockwise normally.

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    What would the right pump code look like to have it run clockwise?

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