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Thread: why isn't freshwater prime included?

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    why isn't freshwater prime included?

    I am a freshwater user and I bought these lights specifically to use them with the apex. I sent AI a email asking if they where planning to add support. They told me it was neptune not them. So I emailed neptune and they told me it is not supported. Why no love for the freshwater community? The apex el is perfect for the freshwater aquarist. They seem to not want their business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trucker den View Post
    I am a freshwater user and I bought these lights specifically to use them with the apex. I sent AI a email asking if they where planning to add support. They told me it was neptune not them. So I emailed neptune and they told me it is not supported. Why no love for the freshwater community? The apex el is perfect for the freshwater aquarist. They seem to not want their business.
    Yes it is a sad fact that APEX works wonderfully for Freshwater Aquariums with the exception of support for Freshwater Lighting. In their defense, they have made it perfectly clear since the beginning that they are focused on the Salt Water Aquarists, but one can hope that someday, they might broaden their focus. Maybe, someday?

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    Agreed that the ApexEL is also an excellent tool for fresh, “lightwater” tanks! Maybe a rename/repackaging as “ApexFW”, and some clever marketing toward the OCD planted-tank crowd would result in a nice, new area of growth for the company. Don’t forget “ApexHP” for the hydroponics guys and gals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ActualProof View Post
    Agreed that the ApexEL is also an excellent tool for fresh, “lightwater” tanks! Maybe a rename/repackaging as “ApexFW”, and some clever marketing toward the OCD planted-tank crowd would result in a nice, new area of growth for the company. Don’t forget “ApexHP” for the hydroponics guys and gals.
    Seriously missing the boat on a nice market here. They should totally add support for the FW prime. I was about to buy one for my refugium, assuming it would be supported. Glad I waited. I think I'll go with the Prime HD for the fuge and just make the spectrum more white.

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    Quote Originally Posted by filarraza View Post
    Seriously missing the boat on a nice market here. They should totally add support for the FW prime. I was about to buy one for my refugium, assuming it would be supported. Glad I waited. I think I'll go with the Prime HD for the fuge and just make the spectrum more white.
    Agreed.

    But with all due respect, FW aquarists do not spend half money SW aquarists do and are less likely to spend money on an Apex controller. A lot of them still use timers, lower end lighting, HOB filters, manually dose, etc.

    Just look at how many use automated dosers, ATO, high-end LED fixtures, etc. The number is quite low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raul-7 View Post
    Agreed.

    But with all due respect, FW aquarists do not spend half money SW aquarists do and are less likely to spend money on an Apex controller. A lot of them still use timers, lower end lighting, HOB filters, manually dose, etc.

    Just look at how many use automated dosers, ATO, high-end LED fixtures, etc. The number is quite low.
    So just curious, where do you get your facts for your comment "
    FW aquarists do not spend half money SW aquarists do" ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrT View Post
    So just curious, where do you get your facts for your comment "
    FW aquarists do not spend half money SW aquarists do" ?
    I agree! The freshwater hobbyist spends just as much. I purchased the apex el. When I posted what it can do, people were amazed. They had no idea it even existed. Especially the freshwater keepers of cichlids. We spend roughly 35.00 per fish and overstock our aquariums to cut down on aggression. In my aquarium I have 100 fish. That equates to 3500.00. I use the same sump as saltwater(crystal reef),same tank as saltwater, and same lights as saltwater(hydra 26)
    .The only difference is I don’t have a skimmer. Where does spending half of what saltwater guys spend come from?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrT View Post
    So just curious, where do you get your facts for your comment "
    FW aquarists do not spend half money SW aquarists do" ?
    Just calculate and compare basic maintenance costs. Then calculate and compare startup costs. Then look at all the technology developed in the hobby; over 60% is for SW aquaria.

    Quote Originally Posted by trucker den View Post
    I agree! The freshwater hobbyist spends just as much. I purchased the apex el. When I posted what it can do, people were amazed. They had no idea it even existed. Especially the freshwater keepers of cichlids. We spend roughly 35.00 per fish and overstock our aquariums to cut down on aggression. In my aquarium I have 100 fish. That equates to 3500.00. I use the same sump as saltwater(crystal reef),same tank as saltwater, and same lights as saltwater(hydra 26)
    .The only difference is I don’t have a skimmer. Where does spending half of what saltwater guys spend come from?
    You are a minority. There are FW aquarists who spend a lot [more likely in Europe and Japan]; but your average FW aquarists is a beginner or is looking for shortcuts. And FW is 'n' times more forgiving than SW when it comes to mistakes.


    If you wish I can go into more detail but if you think about it for a while - it will make logical sense.


    BTW, I use my Apex for a FW breeding rack. So I'm not looking down at FW at all. I'm just stating facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raul-7 View Post
    Just calculate and compare basic maintenance costs. Then calculate and compare startup costs. Then look at all the technology developed in the hobby; over 60% is for SW aquaria.



    You are a minority. There are FW aquarists who spend a lot [more likely in Europe and Japan]; but your average FW aquarists is a beginner or is looking for shortcuts. And FW is 'n' times more forgiving than SW when it comes to mistakes.


    If you wish I can go into more detail but if you think about it for a while - it will make logical sense.


    BTW, I use my Apex for a FW breeding rack. So I'm not looking down at FW at all. I'm just stating facts.
    I was simply wanting to know if this was your opinion or actual facts. I was not questioning your numbers just wanted to know where you got them from as I have read numerous "opinions" on this subject but rarely have I read actual "facts" such as those compiled by the Pet Industry because I am only a hobbyist and most of the reliable reports are only available to Industry Professionals, i.e. Retailors etc. along with a substantial price tag. I was hoping that you had some actual facts, and if so, can you quote them along with the source to help educate us. Once again, I am not questioning your numbers as they might indeed be correct, I am just hoping someone will be able to give us some actual research data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrT View Post
    I was simply wanting to know if this was your opinion or actual facts. I was not questioning your numbers just wanted to know where you got them from as I have read numerous "opinions" on this subject but rarely have I read actual "facts" such as those compiled by the Pet Industry because I am only a hobbyist and most of the reliable reports are only available to Industry Professionals, i.e. Retailors etc. along with a substantial price tag. I was hoping that you had some actual facts, and if so, can you quote them along with the source to help educate us. Once again, I am not questioning your numbers as they might indeed be correct, I am just hoping someone will be able to give us some actual research data.
    The numbers aren't factual, basically the majority of technology in this industry is geared for SW hobbyists. That includes but not limited to: powerheads, LED lighting, automatic dKH measurement equipment, dosers, reef-ready aquariums, etc.

    A lot of these have dual purpose [like dosers], but fact is they have the SW hobbyist at the forefront when designing and marketing these products. And rightfully so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raul-7 View Post
    The numbers aren't factual, basically the majority of technology in this industry is geared for SW hobbyists. That includes but not limited to: powerheads, LED lighting, automatic dKH measurement equipment, dosers, reef-ready aquariums, etc.

    A lot of these have dual purpose [like dosers], but fact is they have the SW hobbyist at the forefront when designing and marketing these products. And rightfully so.

    Okay, for the sake of simplicity, let's combine your opinion that Saltwater Fish hobbyists spend twice as much money as Freshwater hobbyists with the "Facts" publicized by the American Pet Products Association(APPA).

    According to their latest survey 2.5 million Households own Saltwater Fish and 12.5 million Households own Freshwater Fish. So lets use your opinion and the facts in a hypothetical scenario of a FW aquarium set up costing $500.00 and double that for SW to $1,000.00:

    Saltwater Aquarium setup $1,000.00 x 2,500,000 = $2,500,000,000.00
    Freshwater Aquariums setup $500.00 x 12,500,000 = $12,500,000,000.00
    $12,500,000,000.00 - $2,000,000,000.00 = $10,000,000,000.00
    That would show that in this hypothetical scenario the insignificant Freshwater hobbyists would spend collectively 5 times more money than their Saltwater compatriot's.

    That, my friend is a whopping 10 Billion dollars, so in reality, not so insignificant...….
    fish.jpg

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    These FW hobbyists you speak of; a lot of them use HOB or sponge filters. A lot of them still use 'shop lights'. A lot of them use your standard off the shelf aquarium.

    Next compare the price of FW vs SW fish.

    Or plants vs corals.

    A SW setup can easily cost 3 times a FW aquarium to setup. In SW you cannot take shortcuts like you can in FW. They require more technology to dial in their aquariums; whereas in FW it's almost 'plug-and-play'.


    There's more money to made in the SW sector and that's a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrT View Post

    Okay, for the sake of simplicity, let's combine your opinion that Saltwater Fish hobbyists spend twice as much money as Freshwater hobbyists with the "Facts" publicized by the American Pet Products Association(APPA).

    According to their latest survey 2.5 million Households own Saltwater Fish and 12.5 million Households own Freshwater Fish. So lets use your opinion and the facts in a hypothetical scenario of a FW aquarium set up costing $500.00 and double that for SW to $1,000.00:

    Saltwater Aquarium setup $1,000.00 x 2,500,000 = $2,500,000,000.00
    Freshwater Aquariums setup $500.00 x 12,500,000 = $12,500,000,000.00
    $12,500,000,000.00 - $2,000,000,000.00 = $10,000,000,000.00
    That would show that in this hypothetical scenario the insignificant Freshwater hobbyists would spend collectively 5 times more money than their Saltwater compatriot's.

    That, my friend is a whopping 10 Billion dollars, so in reality, not so insignificant...….
    fish.jpg
    While I agree that Neptune should make some updates fo make the FW versions of popular saltwater lights usable, simple market share values do not tell the whole story and your figures on what a saltwater vs freshwater tank cost are seriously flawed.

    The typical beginner FW setup costs less than $100. The typical "intermediate" FW tank uses an off the shelf 50 or 75 gallon tank, HOB or canister filter, and relatively cheap lighting all done with timers and costs well under 500 including livestock. The typical advanced Ciclid tank or planted aquarium might have some extra bells and whistles that bring the cost above 1000.

    The typical beginner SW tank costs between 500 and 1000 for something like a 40b. My reef club is currently running a "budget build" competition with a cost cap of $1000 and max tank size of 60 gallons and people are having a rediculously hard time leaving more than a couple hundred dollars for livestock without buying every peice of equipment used. The typical intermediate tank often includes significant automation and costs between 1000-3000. The typical advanced setup with a large tank and all the bells and whistles costs a minimum of 5000.

    When you figure that only the most advanced FW aquariums have a budget of over 1000, that rules out someone even considering an apex real quick. I don't remember the numbers or what thread it was in, but Terrance provided some market share data a while back and the numbers were along the lines of 90% of apex units were for Saltwater, about 5% were for freshwater, and the remaining 5% were for hydroponics or research. That 5% obviously should not be ignored, but from a business perspective, it makes a lot more sense to invest R&D resources on 90% of your user base than on 5%.



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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    While I agree that Neptune should make some updates fo make the FW versions of popular saltwater lights usable, simple market share values do not tell the whole story and your figures on what a saltwater vs freshwater tank cost are seriously flawed.

    The typical beginner FW setup costs less than $100. The typical "intermediate" FW tank uses an off the shelf 50 or 75 gallon tank, HOB or canister filter, and relatively cheap lighting all done with timers and costs well under 500 including livestock. The typical advanced Ciclid tank or planted aquarium might have some extra bells and whistles that bring the cost above 1000.

    The typical beginner SW tank costs between 500 and 1000 for something like a 40b. My reef club is currently running a "budget build" competition with a cost cap of $1000 and max tank size of 60 gallons and people are having a rediculously hard time leaving more than a couple hundred dollars for livestock without buying every peice of equipment used. The typical intermediate tank often includes significant automation and costs between 1000-3000. The typical advanced setup with a large tank and all the bells and whistles costs a minimum of 5000.

    When you figure that only the most advanced FW aquariums have a budget of over 1000, that rules out someone even considering an apex real quick. I don't remember the numbers or what thread it was in, but Terrance provided some market share data a while back and the numbers were along the lines of 90% of apex units were for Saltwater, about 5% were for freshwater, and the remaining 5% were for hydroponics or research. That 5% obviously should not be ignored, but from a business perspective, it makes a lot more sense to invest R&D resources on 90% of your user base than on 5%.



    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    The flawed costs was a hypothetical scenario using the costs opinions of someone other than myself, I did however, use the factual data of the amount of fish owners which is significant and should not be ignored.
    So let's get back to the subject of this thread, can we use your quoted estimate that only 5% of the Neptune units are for FW users to give us 5% for some R & D for a decent way to control a FW light, or perhaps the ability to control just one FW light? As with SW, the ability to control lighting parameters is definitely desired by the FW folks, so throw us a bone and give us 12.5 million households an opportunity to spend more money on our hobby.

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    Again it brings it up the fact of why no love for the freshwater hobbyist? It really has nothing to do with a ton of future R and D but selling what they already have. I bought the Apex El because it is perfect for the freshwater hobbyist. I think the market is there and Neptune is missing out on a big segment of the hobby. I had to return my prime freshwater lights and go with hydra 26. No biggie. But it would also stand that some advertising of the apex el to the freshwater market with some support for things like prime freshwater would only be a upside. I posted a short video on a Cichlid forum of what the apex can do and people lost their minds. They couldn’t believe that if my tank leaks it sends me a email and shuts down. They didn’t think anything like that even existed.

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    I agree [I'm a FW user], but fact remains we are not dominant in the controller market. A lot of hobbyists still use traditional timers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trucker den View Post
    I am a freshwater user and I bought these lights specifically to use them with the apex. I sent AI a email asking if they where planning to add support. They told me it was neptune not them. So I emailed neptune and they told me it is not supported. Why no love for the freshwater community? The apex el is perfect for the freshwater aquarist. They seem to not want their business.
    There just isn't as many people on the fresh side that is willing to spend the money like on the salt side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrT View Post
    So just curious, where do you get your facts for your comment "
    FW aquarists do not spend half money SW aquarists do" ?
    Well I was in fw for yrs before getting into sw and even now I have them both. O could have bought 4 high end fw tanks with everything that I would need for them with what I have in just one of my saltwater tanks.

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