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Thread: ATO Hi Optical Sensor in constant closed

  1. #1
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    ATO Hi Optical Sensor in constant closed

    Hi All, 8 months into using the ATK and it has until he last few days been working fine. It stalled afew days ago, unplugging it and back in again kicked it back into life and it filled the return chamber as expected.

    Today the alarm was going off this morning, the upper optical sensor is in a constant closed state, hence alarming as thats set as a parameter, but it also had the ATO_HI closed then off statement so the ATK wasnt triggering either. I removed the alarm line and the ATO line and boom alarm stops and the ATK fills instantly for the 6 seconds its programmed for.

    I reckon the sensor is screwed so i swap it to another port that i know is working as the top up reservoir sensor registers and functions as expected, and nothing, it still shows closed. Its been cleaned, checked and reinstalled all fine, its never had problems being in its location so not close to a baffle or anything. I have tried to open a ticket with Neptune but no emails have come through so god knows what they do their end, could it simply be a failed sensor ??

  2. #2
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    If you have it set to optical and not AUTO detect, that would mean the infrared diode inside failed most likely. If you have it set to AUTO detect, then it might just be dirty.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    If you have it set to optical and not AUTO detect, that would mean the infrared diode inside failed most likely. If you have it set to AUTO detect, then it might just be dirty.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Hi, thanks for the reply. I had it set manually to start with but reset to auto detection and the sensor is still showing closed when its above the water line. It looks like its cream crackered so waiting on an RMA to be sent back to my UK supplier

  4. #4
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    These sensors do fail very commonly. Same sensors are used for the DDR container and those fail all the time too. They seem to fail most often in CLOSED state. These somewhat unreliable sensors are the main reason to program extra safety features in your ATO. You were fortunate because you already had an alert that would tell you of high sensor failure. It's also a good idea to create alerts (via programming VOs) that will tell you if your low sensor has stayed either open or closed for too long. In my case, for example, if the low sensor stays OPEN for 60 minutes continuously, something is definitely wrong, so I get an alert. I use 240 minutes for low sensor closed alarm because sometimes I slightly overfill the sump during water changes.

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    I was only thinking its bound to be a matter of time before the other goes too. Shame but i guess the tanks we run are incredibly potent to their surroundings and equipment, salt water is a killer. I will hopefully get these replaced and guy another ATK jut in case so i can swap if needs be. I am out of the country for a few weeks soon so its sods law it goes wrong then !! lol

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    Neptune’s Optical sensors have a reputation for being flaky like this. My high level sensor has done this several times. After verifying that it isn’t dirty, I’ve found that unplugging it and plugins it back in fixes the problem. The issue is very sporadic and may not recur for several weeks or months. I’m still on my original sensor that I got when the ATK first came out and it’s done this a handful of times, the last time about 2 months ago.

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    I have come home late yesterday to the ATK showing a red/purple light on the front and the return chamber of my tank near enough empty, the DT pump was almost exposed so its been a good day maybe two of not topping up while I have been away with work. While the sensor replacements are still being waited on I am considering adding a second non neptune ATO system onto my tank.

    The theory in my madness is to say if ATO_LO sensor is open for more than 120 minutes then turn on outlet ATO_STANDBY which has two float switches manually wired in and a second pump which is totally seperate from the ATK system. The ATO_STANDBY would be set as off under normal cirumstances.

    Issue with this is if the ATK module goes red or purple again it appears to also shutdown the optical sensors, so basing fallback plan on them is somewhat flawed. Any suggestions as to alternatives ? Other than dumping the ATK all together which is kind of appealing tbh at the moment !

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    It sounds like you’re using your ATK with a Neptune controller, not as stand alone? What is your programming? In this configuration, the FMM should keep reading the optical sensors, even if they are reading incorrectly. Is the only problem the optical sensors, or are other parts of the system causing issues as well?

    The FMM is nice to have for other reasons, but to be honest, the ATK is not Neptune’s best product. I have a Tunze ATO that I was planning on seelling after I got my ATK and I have held onto it instead.

    What you have now is an ATO system that is not reliable so you are considering adding a redundant system with programming for it to kick in when your primary ATK fails. As I see it, your basic options are:
    1. Limp along with the ATK until you can get some new optical sensors. It should work fine again until the new sensors fail. I have no idea if Neptune has made any improvements or changes to the optical sensors to make them more reliable; I’m assuming not.
    2. Add a redundant system like you describe. IMO, there’s not much point in doing that. Unreliable components are worthless, IMO, espececially for something like an ATO. If you consider your new system better, you might as well replace the ATK system.
    3. Replace the ATK with a different system like the Tunze.
    4. Reprogram your ATK and use the float sensors you describe instead of the optical sensors.


    If you have a breakout box and some float switches, the simplest option would be to reprogram your ATO pump outlet using the float switches and ditch the optical sensors.

    The most bullet proof system is generally considered to be the Tunze ATO. If you have an extra 120V outlet, you just get one of those and plug it in to the outlet add the appropriate backup code to shut off the outlet when necessary. IIRC, the Tunze uses a 12V power supply, so you could also get a 12V-24V DC converter and power it with one of the DC24 outlets, or just plug it into the wall, completely separate from the controller.

    There are other good ATO options on the market as well; I’m just familiar with the Tunze.

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    Yes connected to APEX classic, it does appear if the ATK had gone into standalone mode - very weird

    Programming for the ATK is:

    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If ATO_LO OPEN Then ON
    If ATO_HI CLOSED Then OFF
    Defer 000:10 Then ON
    Defer 000:06 Then OFF
    If LEAK_D CLOSED Then OFF
    When On > 001:00 Then OFF

    I was expecting email alerts with the below programming on Email;

    Set OFF
    If pH > 8.60 Then ON
    If Tmp > 27.0 Then ON
    If Tmp < 23.0 Then ON
    If Error ATO Then ON
    If LEAK_D CLOSED Then ON
    If ATO_RO OPEN Then ON

    With the line Error for ATO, but i got nothing sent to me, it was only when i restarted the ATK by removing the power and apex cable they came through.

    The backup system is ironically an old float switch unit that ran for about 3 years with no problems, just not APEX controllable or reportable, hence swapping out. I could recycle the switches into a breakout box i guess and then add this as another line of defence for the optical sensors......

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    The below statement is accepted into my fusion programming but not retained when uploaded / saved

    If ATO_LO OPEN > 60:00 Then ON

    It then gets changed to:

    If ATO_LO OPEN Then OFF

    All i want it to do is if the sensor remains open for more than 60mins as the pump has failed then turn on the backup system ..... I also want a failsafe for;

    If ATO_LO CLOSED > 240:00 Then ON

    So if the sensor has failed in the closed state for more than 4 hours then alarm ON or email ON

    Ideally i want the alarm to be triggered and a different EB power plug to be turned on, for the backup system to start.

    Rapidly running out of patience to be honest

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordnikon View Post
    The below statement is accepted into my fusion programming but not retained when uploaded / saved

    If ATO_LO OPEN > 60:00 Then ON

    It then gets changed to:

    If ATO_LO OPEN Then OFF

    All i want it to do is if the sensor remains open for more than 60mins as the pump has failed then turn on the backup system ..... I also want a failsafe for;

    If ATO_LO CLOSED > 240:00 Then ON

    So if the sensor has failed in the closed state for more than 4 hours then alarm ON or email ON

    Ideally i want the alarm to be triggered and a different EB power plug to be turned on, for the backup system to start.

    Rapidly running out of patience to be honest
    It's because that is not valid syntax. Stuck switch detection must be done by a virtual outlet

    ATOstuckOFF
    Set OFF
    If ATO_LO OPEN Then ON
    Defer 240:00 Then ON

    Then you can use the if outlet statement to turn on your other ATO.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    It's because that is not valid syntax. Stuck switch detection must be done by a virtual outlet

    ATOstuckOFF
    Set OFF
    If ATO_LO OPEN Then ON
    Defer 240:00 Then ON

    Then you can use the if outlet statement to turn on your other ATO.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Of course it does, why wouldnt it !! #facepalm

    I've thrown in the towel and finally got an RMA for a UK return, wow that was emotional too. Afraid the statement above is true, there is no room for sub standard equipment in this hobby and unfortunately this ATK falls into that imo now. Shame as it has genuine potential but i guess with everything these days cheap parts are used (look at the deltec skimmer pumps now) and a premium is still charged.....

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    If you have it set to optical and not AUTO detect, that would mean the infrared diode inside failed most likely. If you have it set to AUTO detect, then it might just be dirty.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Good Morning Zombie.
    So I have had both my optical sensors fail. I am not going to ship it in for service because its well out of warranty. I looked at the board in the DDR and it looks fine. I was actually almost hoping for some type of noticeable damage. The little white connections, pins and board are clean with no sign of water damage or corrosion. I disconnected and reconnected them and they did not reset. That would be cool if that worked lol. So before I throw in the towel with the sensor I was just wondering Is the diode inside the actual sensor or is it on the board?

    I have decided as much as I look at fusion I can do without the optical eye because I can see the DDR levels with the DDR image. That being said I would like to see if there is a way to actually test the eye?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sppf121 View Post
    Good Morning Zombie.
    So I have had both my optical sensors fail. I am not going to ship it in for service because its well out of warranty. I looked at the board in the DDR and it looks fine. I was actually almost hoping for some type of noticeable damage. The little white connections, pins and board are clean with no sign of water damage or corrosion. I disconnected and reconnected them and they did not reset. That would be cool if that worked lol. So before I throw in the towel with the sensor I was just wondering Is the diode inside the actual sensor or is it on the board?

    I have decided as much as I look at fusion I can do without the optical eye because I can see the DDR levels with the DDR image. That being said I would like to see if there is a way to actually test the eye?
    There are several potential modes of failure -
    - Dirty sensor
    - Bad connection
    - Failed Diode (either emitter or sensor)
    - Failed cable/plug
    - Bad module

    Assuming the first two and last one are eliminated and the failure is with the sensor itself, the most likely mode would be a cable failure. Diodes can fail, but in the absence of an electrical surge it’s quite uncommon.

    One theory I have seen is that the cable develops small cracks/fractures that allow salt water in either shorting out the contacts or causing corrosion. I have no direct evidence of this, but it’s plausible.

    You could potentially check for shorts with an ohm meter/continuity tester but I have not seen any schematics showing what the plug configuration is. They’re probably out there on the internet somewhere.

    If you have a working sensor and the right equipment you could probalby also figure it out by trial and error.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleepydoc View Post
    You could potentially check for shorts with an ohm meter/continuity tester but I have not seen any schematics showing what the plug configuration is. They’re probably out there on the internet somewhere.
    The way to check is to use the diode feature of an ohm meter to check the diode bias voltage across the IR LED. There is a thread on reef2reef that has the schematic reverse engineered for the DOS board. I can't link to it here due to forum rules.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    It's also a good idea to create alerts (via programming VOs) that will tell you if your low sensor has stayed either open or closed for too long. In my case, for example, if the low sensor stays OPEN for 60 minutes continuously, something is definitely wrong, so I get an alert. I use 240 minutes for low sensor closed alarm because sometimes I slightly overfill the sump during water changes.
    I've had my optical sensor for my auto top off water container fail and now it appears the ATO-HI sensor in my ATK has failed. I hadn't considered your suggestion above previously but that's brilliant - I'll program that into my alarms today - does anyone happen to have the code snippet for this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sclaussen View Post
    I've had my optical sensor for my auto top off water container fail and now it appears the ATO-HI sensor in my ATK has failed. I hadn't considered your suggestion above previously but that's brilliant - I'll program that into my alarms today - does anyone happen to have the code snippet for this?

    Thanks,
    Shane
    I use this code to warn me if the water has been low for over 90 minutes:

    [Alert_ATK_Lo]
    Set OFF
    If ATK_LO OPEN Then ON
    Defer 090:00 Then ON

    [EmailAlm]
    Set OFF
    If Output Alert_ATK_Lo = ON Then ON

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuncrestReef View Post
    I use this code to warn me if the water has been low for over 90 minutes:

    [Alert_ATK_Lo]
    Set OFF
    If ATK_LO OPEN Then ON
    Defer 090:00 Then ON

    [EmailAlm]
    Set OFF
    If Output Alert_ATK_Lo = ON Then ON
    Thank you for getting back so quickly! I appreciate it, have a good day!

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