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Thread: DOS is Dumping Alk and CA at the Same Time Pretty Frequently. Can I change that?

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    DOS is Dumping Alk and CA at the Same Time Pretty Frequently. Can I change that?

    So I used the wizard and set my preferred amounts up. However, about every 3rd to 4th dosing or so, it's dumping the Alk and Ca in at either the same time, or 1 second apart.

    These are small doses, generally a ml or less, but it would make me happier to know that these doses are at least 30 seconds to a minute apart.

    Is there a way to force the apex to put a mandatory gap between the Alk and Ca doses?

    Doses too close together.png

  2. #2
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    It’s such a tiny amount that you need not worry about it.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Usually it makes little difference given the very small individual quantities as Russ notes, but there are ways to adjust the quantity and total duration of dosing such that the dosing interval is the same for each head. The current interval between doses ('dose every...') is found from each pump's Schedule page by clicking on the orange gear to the left of each dosing line and selecting Interval Summary. This number can't be changed directly, but by tweaking the Volume and total dose timing from the Manage Interval pulldown, and then going back to Interval Summary, a timing match between 2 different dosing regimens can be created. Then you can go back to Modify Interval and change the start time of one of the pumps by 2 minutes, which will keep them in lockstep 2 minutes apart throughout the night and day. (Make sure this last step hasn't changed the interval between doses in Interval Summary, which will typically be unchanged.)

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    Frequent Visitor dlegare's Avatar
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    It would be nice if Neptune Systems came up with an algorithm to automatically link several DOS pumps together so they didn't activate at the same time.

    I've got mine dosing every 24hrs and I adjust the TDATA with a word processor but it would be nice to have Apex Fusion just ask what amount you want to dose over a 24 hr period and what interval between elements/products.

    But at the moment they are hard at work with TRIDENT! ;-)

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    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    I agree, if Neptune changes the interface, I'll learn what works in the new one. In the meantime, although initially a bit tricky, it's possible to achieve the desired result, with a bit of work.

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    Frequent Visitor dlegare's Avatar
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    it may just be my tiny aquarium (18g) but I see a huge difference when my triton elements are separated by 10 minutes minimum with no simultaneous dosing (except I mix 3a and b).

    I originally started with the wizard and offset the start times by 10 min but I still had some simultaneous dosing.

    When I changed to dosing elements each hour and separated by 10 min my Alk and PH took a good jump.

    It may not matter in a larger aquarium. I've seen tanks with filter sock holders the size of my tiny tank. ;-)

    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    Usually it makes little difference given the very small individual quantities as Russ notes, but there are ways to adjust the quantity and total duration of dosing such that the dosing interval is the same for each head. The current interval between doses ('dose every...') is found from each pump's Schedule page by clicking on the orange gear to the left of each dosing line and selecting Interval Summary. This number can't be changed directly, but by tweaking the Volume and total dose timing from the Manage Interval pulldown, and then going back to Interval Summary, a timing match between 2 different dosing regimens can be created. Then you can go back to Modify Interval and change the start time of one of the pumps by 2 minutes, which will keep them in lockstep 2 minutes apart throughout the night and day. (Make sure this last step hasn't changed the interval between doses in Interval Summary, which will typically be unchanged.)

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    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Deputydog, according to his other posts, is running 2 WAVs and 3 Kessils. Pretty sure it’s not a pico or nano tank and that an occasional concurrent dose of 0.5ml or so of alk and Ca is nothing to be concerned about.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Frequent Visitor dlegare's Avatar
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    LOL If you based tank size on equipment alone you'd think mine was larger. Arid N-18 2x mp10 + 1 Tunze nano stream + 1 icecap 1k Gyre 2 Kessils A360 + a80 running full triton. ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    Deputydog, according to his other posts, is running 2 WAVs and 3 Kessils. Pretty sure it’s not a pico or nano tank and that an occasional concurrent dose of 0.5ml or so of alk and Ca is nothing to be concerned about.
    Good call Russ Not a monster tank at 112 gallons, but not a nano tank either.


    Don't the A&B precipitate out when dosed together? I know it's a small amount, but the wizard is allowing this to happen every 5 or 6 doses pretty consistently. Aren't I losing some efficacy of the dosing chemicals if this is happening this frequently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    Usually it makes little difference given the very small individual quantities as Russ notes, but there are ways to adjust the quantity and total duration of dosing such that the dosing interval is the same for each head. The current interval between doses ('dose every...') is found from each pump's Schedule page by clicking on the orange gear to the left of each dosing line and selecting Interval Summary. This number can't be changed directly, but by tweaking the Volume and total dose timing from the Manage Interval pulldown, and then going back to Interval Summary, a timing match between 2 different dosing regimens can be created. Then you can go back to Modify Interval and change the start time of one of the pumps by 2 minutes, which will keep them in lockstep 2 minutes apart throughout the night and day. (Make sure this last step hasn't changed the interval between doses in Interval Summary, which will typically be unchanged.)

    You kind of lost me on this... I just switched from my uber simple Bubble Magus doser to the DOS.

    Do you have a screen shot I can use as a "go by"?

  11. #11
    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    You bet. Choose the tile that represents the first DOS pump, and click on its grey gear icon. That brings up the schedule, like this:

    Clipboard03.jpg

    Here, the pump is set to run for the entire 24 hours, dispensing 45 ml over that time. To get the specifics of that, click on the orange gear at the left, pull down the menu to Interval Summary, which brings up this:

    Clipboard04.jpg

    So, for this total amount (45 ml) and this total duration (24 hours), the DOS will use these parameters. The key one is 'Dose every...', in this case, 19 minutes. This is what you need to match with the other pump.

    Go to the same schedule page for the other pump.

    Clipboard05.jpg

    In this case, the easiest scenario, I'm using exactly the same amount of fluid from each pump per 24 hours (usual recommended starting point for 2 part). Note however that the starting point for this pump has been moved back by 5 minutes, to 5 minutes after midnight.To do this, again using the orange gear icon, select Modify Interval to bring up this page:

    Clipboard07.jpg

    Here you can offset the starting time by several minutes. Click ok, then go to this pump's Interval Summary, and make sure the Dose Every is still 19 minutes (or whatever your other pump is.) Then upload the schedule to the Apex.

    If the amounts of fluid to be dispensed per 24 hours are not the same, you can decrease the total duration of this pump by changing the end time, or either increase or decrease the total volume of fluid to be dispensed on the Modify Interval page. Then go back to the Interval Summary page and see the timing of your new settings. When it matches the timing of the other pump, you're set to upload to Apex. The timing is not easily predictable but just experimenting with numbers works well enough. I keep a list of the timing for various total amounts dispensed.

  12. #12
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    Great post. Thank you!

    I don't dose the same amount of A&B, but I did offset the start time by 15 mins. One starts as 0000 and the other starts at 0015.

    One says it doses every 15 mins and the other says it doses every 10 mins. I'm not certain why my screen shot cut off part of the interval summary.

    Why do you think it is I'm still getting an overlap where they're dosing at the exact same time?

    Alk Dosing.png


    Calcium Dosing.png

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    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    They don't march forward together unless "Dose every" is the same for both, or one is exactly 2X, 3X, etc the other.

    Also I'd suggest a smaller offset (5 minutes rather than 15), because 15 can be greater than the actual dosing interval, which complicates things. To keep the alk and calcium from interacting, a few minutes is generally sufficient.

    Looking at your numbers. I'd adjust alk down to 68 ml/day, dosing every 17 minutes, and adjust calcium to 58 ml/day, also dosing every 17 minutes.

    Or adjust alk up to 72 ml/day, dosing every 12 minutes, and calcium up to 60 ml/day, also dosing every 12 minutes.

    There will be no simultaneous or near simultaneous dosing with these schedules and a 5 minute delay on one of the pumps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    They don't march forward together unless "Dose every" is the same for both, or one is exactly 2X, 3X, etc the other.

    Also I'd suggest a smaller offset (5 minutes rather than 15), because 15 can be greater than the actual dosing interval, which complicates things. To keep the alk and calcium from interacting, a few minutes is generally sufficient.

    Looking at your numbers. I'd adjust alk down to 68 ml/day, dosing every 17 minutes, and adjust calcium to 58 ml/day, also dosing every 17 minutes.

    Or adjust alk up to 72 ml/day, dosing every 12 minutes, and calcium up to 60 ml/day, also dosing every 12 minutes.

    There will be no simultaneous or near simultaneous dosing with these schedules and a 5 minute delay on one of the pumps.
    So right now, it's dosing alk a rate of every 10 mins and Ca at a rate of every 15 mins.

    My dosing volumes have never been one to one. Alk is always a bit higher.

    So if I'm understanding you correctly.... Just keep messing with the end times until you get them dosing on the same intervals? And then slightly offset the start times?

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    So I think I know what I did wrong...
    I had one starting at 0000 and the other starting at 0005. Both running to 2359. However the first was dosing every 15 mins and the second one was dosing every 10 mins. However, with the delayed start of 5 mins, the second one probably turned into a more or less effective dosing schedule of every 15 mins, plus or minus. And why I kept seeing over laps every 4th or 5th. Just a theory, I don't know what the hell I'm entirely doing yet, but I'm learning! Thanks everyone!

    I took your advice and started the dosing time table for both at 0000 hours but I kept the amounts the same. Alk was dosing every 10 mins, so I was shooting for the same with Ca. It's freaky how the wizard works. One small time adjustment and I'm at 17 min intervals, then adjust it by 5 mins and it goes down to 11 mins. I eventually settled on the what you see below. Which puts me at 10 min dosing intervals for each. I then pushed the start time to start 5 mins after the Alk starts, and that quickly trashed my 10 mins intervals. So I adjusted the Alk end time by 5 mins to get me back to my 10 min matching intervals.

    How exactly does this wizard work for these calculations? I'm sure there's some logic here, just seems a little random to me. Is it something like the amount you need to dose divided by the available number of minutes during the dosing period or something like that? Sure would be easy if you could simply say I want to dose X amount, during this time window, and have this interval between doses. The wizard almost seems more complicated than it needs to be.


    Dosing Intervals 2.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    So right now, it's dosing alk a rate of every 10 mins and Ca at a rate of every 15 mins.

    My dosing volumes have never been one to one. Alk is always a bit higher.

    So if I'm understanding you correctly.... Just keep messing with the end times until you get them dosing on the same intervals? And then slightly offset the start times?
    Pretty much. If you get a dose or two per day that land right on top of each other, I wouldn't worry about that though.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    How exactly does this wizard work for these calculations? I'm sure there's some logic here, just seems a little random to me. Is it something like the amount you need to dose divided by the available number of minutes during the dosing period or something like that? Sure would be easy if you could simply say I want to dose X amount, during this time window, and have this interval between doses. The wizard almost seems more complicated than it needs to be.

    I haven't tried to figure out the algorithm. I just use the table I made and find values that are close to what I want and match.

    But keep in mind that this is a pretty unusual way to do things. Most people just set it and forget it and don't dig this deep into the timing.

    Or, they create a sizable number of individual doses at different times for each pump. This second approach also appeals to me but you will not get the same large number of very small doses without a lot of work setting it up and testing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Pretty much. If you get a dose or two per day that land right on top of each other, I wouldn't worry about that though.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Other than a few oddball doses. it seems to be working really well now and for the most part, they're spaced out by exactly 5 mins. However, if I'm understanding this right... The min I change the dosing volume, all bets are off and I'll have to start over.

    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    I haven't tried to figure out the algorithm. I just use the table I made and find values that are close to what I want and match.

    But keep in mind that this is a pretty unusual way to do things. Most people just set it and forget it and don't dig this deep into the timing.

    Or, they create a sizable number of individual doses at different times for each pump. This second approach also appeals to me but you will not get the same large number of very small doses without a lot of work setting it up and testing it.
    It's a matter of time before I end up adjusting the dosing values and clearly it's a do over the min I change a value (time or dose amount).

    Any chance you could share that table with me? Sounds like it would be a huge time saver!

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    Other than a few oddball doses. it seems to be working really well now and for the most part, they're spaced out by exactly 5 mins. However, if I'm understanding this right... The min I change the dosing volume, all bets are off and I'll have to start over.



    It's a matter of time before I end up adjusting the dosing values and clearly it's a do over the min I change a value (time or dose amount).

    Any chance you could share that table with me? Sounds like it would be a huge time saver!
    Yep. That's why I just set and forget mine and don't worry about overlap. As long as they aren't exactly the same dose and exactly the same interval, the number of overlapping doses is small no matter what and a single drop of each occurring at the same time has almost zero precipitation as long as it's in an area with some flow.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post

    Any chance you could share that table with me? Sounds like it would be a huge time saver!
    Here you go. DOS 24hr Dosing Intervals.zip

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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Yep. That's why I just set and forget mine and don't worry about overlap. As long as they aren't exactly the same dose and exactly the same interval, the number of overlapping doses is small no matter what and a single drop of each occurring at the same time has almost zero precipitation as long as it's in an area with some flow.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    I get mildly obsessed with dumb stuff and trying to perfect it. Character flaw. My wife keeps telling me the enemy of good is perfection, but I never listed

    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    Thanks! I' just took a quick look at this. How did you calculate the math on this table?

    My Alk was 9 and Ca was at 470 yesterday. I thinking about gradually bringing the dkh down to 8 and the Ca to 450.

    I made a small adjustment on my dosing yesterday and threw my dosing timing off completely. Was pulling my hair about trying to get it back. The wizard is really hard to predict what will happen when you change something.

    This should be a huge help! As I mentioned above, I know it probably doesn't matter, but the overlaps are driving me nuts! My old timey simple Bubble Magus three head has run like a champ for 5 years and zero overlaps.

    I was goofing around and looking at some of the downloadable dosing programs. Saw an interesting one. They basically went back and forth every two hours, switching between Ca and Alk. That was kind of a neat way to avoid any overlaps, but then you have take your desired dose amount, divide by 6, and be certain to enter that specific number in all 6 intervals. Seems like an opportunity to easily make a mistake and requires that you adjust all 6 every time you make a small change. Meh.



    Have any of you ever considered dosing Alk from say 8p to 8a and the dosing Ca from 8a to 8p? Zero overlap and might help buffer the pH at night. Seems like it should work well, but I think it would make it hard to get accurate tests on both since they're split up over 12 hour periods. If you tested in the afternoon you would likely get a high Ca reading a slightly lower dkh, right?

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    Frequent Visitor rkpetersen's Avatar
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    How did you calculate the math on this table?
    Brute force, just plugged every integer dosing value in and recorded the result.

    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    Have any of you ever considered dosing Alk from say 8p to 8a and the dosing Ca from 8a to 8p? Zero overlap and might help buffer the pH at night. Seems like it should work well, but I think it would make it hard to get accurate tests on both since they're split up over 12 hour periods. If you tested in the afternoon you would likely get a high Ca reading a slightly lower dkh, right?
    Once I get a Trident in hand and start seeing how my alk actually changes during the day and night with my current dosing, I might well try some experimenting with altering dosing schedules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkpetersen View Post
    Brute force, just plugged every integer dosing value in and recorded the result.



    Once I get a Trident in hand and start seeing how my alk actually changes during the day and night with my current dosing, I might well try some experimenting with altering dosing schedules.

    Wow, that must have been brutal recording those individually. I downloaded the chart. That must have taken forever. I appreciate you sharing all that hard work.

    I've been waiting on the Trident too. Kind of given up on it. I think we're at almost two years since they officially announced it. I'm at the point now where I guess it'll get here when it gets here... I hate testing and it would save so much time having a device like this. I've come close to buying some of the other options out there, but holding out for the apex because of the integration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deputydog95 View Post
    Wow, that must have been brutal recording those individually. I downloaded the chart. That must have taken forever. I appreciate you sharing all that hard work.
    You're welcome.

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    That spreadsheet has been incredibly helpful. I've been making adjustments weekly as of late, as the tank is consuming more Alk all of a sudden. This sheet has made it so much easier to enter my preferred values, while at the same time keeping my 5 min gap between Alk and Ca. I know they're generally small doses and it shouldn't matter if they go at the same time once in a while, but the OCD in me likes things the way I like them

    Thanks again!

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