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Thread: Back up heater settings

  1. #1
    Frequent Visitor LiveRock27's Avatar
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    Back up heater settings

    I want to install a second heater on my tank incase my main heater ever stops working. My main heater is set to come on at 78 and go off at 78.1. What should the on and off temps be for my back up heater?
    Also, is there a way to set up an alarm so that if my backup heater turns on I receive a notice?

  2. #2
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    That temp range is probably too narrow - the heater will likely be cycling on and off quite frequently. Allow a slightly greater range - .3 or .4

    Program the backup heater to have the same upper temp range value as the primary and the low temp value a bit lower than that of the primary heater - .4 or .5 degrees.

    To get the alert, add this to you email output program:

    If Output HeaterBU = ON Then ON

    Use the actual name of the backup heater outlet.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  3. #3
    Frequent Contributor zombie's Avatar
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    Assuming your heaters are properly sized, I actually see no issue with your hysteresis. I prefer this approach with two heaters rather than doing primary and backup (assumes at least heater 1 has it's own thermostat)

    Heater1
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF

    Heater2
    Fallback OFF
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF
    If Temp < 75.0 Then OFF

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

  4. #4
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    With the program above you can add alerting with a virtual outlet. This will turn on if both heaters run longer than 30 minutes. You would add a line to your email alerts of "If Heat-err = ON Then On"

    [Heat-Err]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heat1 = ON Then ON
    If Output Heat2 = OFF Then OFF
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

  5. #5
    Frequent Visitor LiveRock27's Avatar
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    Thanks everyone. Both heaters have their own thermostats, so I will use the above code and also the mentioned error messages.

    Thanks again for all the help!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  6. #6
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    So are you using up two outlet on your Energy Bar? Can another Energy Bar be added to the Apex controller....making 16 outlets?

  7. #7
    Frequent Visitor LiveRock27's Avatar
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    Yes I am using two outlets on my power bar for heaters. I only have 5 items plugged into my power bar because I have a WXM module that my MP10s and Radions run off of.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Assuming your heaters are properly sized, I actually see no issue with your hysteresis. I prefer this approach with two heaters rather than doing primary and backup (assumes at least heater 1 has it's own thermostat)

    Heater1
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF

    Heater2
    Fallback OFF
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF
    If Temp < 75.0 Then OFF

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Will this code let one of the heaters take over heating the tank when the other one fails?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesreich View Post
    Will this code let one of the heaters take over heating the tank when the other one fails?
    Yes, the way this code works is, 1 heater will run during each time window from midnight to noon and then noon to midnight with a lower set point of 78 degrees. If the temp falls below 77.8, then both heaters will turn on to bring the temp up. Once the temp reaches 78.1, it falls back to the alternating time window.

    Don

  10. #10
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    And the beauty of it is you know when one heater has failed because the error virtual outlet triggers when both heaters are running longer than 30 minutes. Since each heater takes the primary role for a 12 hour shift you know which one is having problems by when the alerts happen.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Assuming your heaters are properly sized, I actually see no issue with your hysteresis. I prefer this approach with two heaters rather than doing primary and backup (assumes at least heater 1 has it's own thermostat)

    Heater1
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF

    Heater2
    Fallback OFF
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF
    If Temp < 75.0 Then OFF

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Bringing this back from the dead...

    Can i run this code without either of the heaters having an internal thermostat? the heaters will be properly sized and if one turns on due to fallback it wont be able to cook my tank. Also, if i dont want that tight of temp control can i just open up the window by changing 78.1 in both statements to say 79.0?

    Thanks!

  12. #12
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    Sure, as long as you are OK without having a secondary control. As you mentioned having a smaller heater helps, but you still run the risk of it turning on both heaters if the temp probe fails and is reporting low temps. The "If Temp < 75 then off" line helps as it would shut off if the temp probe was reading something impossibly low.

    I'd also suggest you add in the virtual outlet that can warn you if both heaters run more than 30 minutes at a time. That would help alert you to a failure.

    [Heat-Err]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater1 = ON then ON
    If Output Heater2 = OFF Then OFF
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

    You would then put a line in your alert for if this virtual outlet was on.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholb View Post
    Sure, as long as you are OK without having a secondary control. As you mentioned having a smaller heater helps, but you still run the risk of it turning on both heaters if the temp probe fails and is reporting low temps. The "If Temp < 75 then off" line helps as it would shut off if the temp probe was reading something impossibly low.

    I'd also suggest you add in the virtual outlet that can warn you if both heaters run more than 30 minutes at a time. That would help alert you to a failure.

    [Heat-Err]
    Set OFF
    If Output Heater1 = ON then ON
    If Output Heater2 = OFF Then OFF
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

    You would then put a line in your alert for if this virtual outlet was on.
    Great! I could always set them both to fallback off and hope the ambient temp in the room is high enough to not let the temp fall too far, right? Ill have to try both and see how it goes. If i wanted the alert to delay a bit longer i can just change that defer statement, right?

  14. #14
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    Correct, just change the defer to however long you want to be able to run both at the same time without an alert. When I was running it I found 30 minutes was sufficient to allow backup heat without getting an alert.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholb View Post
    Correct, just change the defer to however long you want to be able to run both at the same time without an alert. When I was running it I found 30 minutes was sufficient to allow backup heat without getting an alert.
    I miss understood how this works. I thought that if the 2nd heater kicks on it would stay on until the highest set point. Apparently it does not work that way. It shuts off when it reaches the lower set point, which results in short cycling the 2nd heater to a small extent. Is there a way to accomplish this same idea of alternating heaters but have the 2nd kick on and take the temp all the way to the upper limit? Thanks

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite0180 View Post
    I miss understood how this works. I thought that if the 2nd heater kicks on it would stay on until the highest set point. Apparently it does not work that way. It shuts off when it reaches the lower set point, which results in short cycling the 2nd heater to a small extent. Is there a way to accomplish this same idea of alternating heaters but have the 2nd kick on and take the temp all the way to the upper limit? Thanks
    The idea is the second heater only comes on rarely when the primary needs help. I can't think of an easy way to make it stay on till the upper temp is reached without messing up the alternating primary heater part. You could add a defer statement to force the heaters to stay on a minimum amount of time, but be careful not to make it too long as it might overshoot your temp.

    Another thing is where is your Apex temp probe in relation to the heaters? This works best if the probe is upstream from the heaters. That way you are measuring the temp of the water coming from the tank rather than the sump water the heater just warmed up. The sump is going to heat up much faster than the tank due to the amount of water.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholb View Post
    The idea is the second heater only comes on rarely when the primary needs help. I can't think of an easy way to make it stay on till the upper temp is reached without messing up the alternating primary heater part. You could add a defer statement to force the heaters to stay on a minimum amount of time, but be careful not to make it too long as it might overshoot your temp.

    Another thing is where is your Apex temp probe in relation to the heaters? This works best if the probe is upstream from the heaters. That way you are measuring the temp of the water coming from the tank rather than the sump water the heater just warmed up. The sump is going to heat up much faster than the tank due to the amount of water.
    So i just found this:

    Heater No. 1
    Fallback OFF
    If Tank < 79.1 Then ON
    If Tank > 79.5 Then OFF
    If Sump < 79.0 Then ON
    If Sump > 79.5 Then OFF
    If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
    If Tank < 78.6 Then ON
    If Sump < 78.6 Then ON
    If Tank > 81.5 Then OFF
    If Tank < 60.0 Then OFF
    If Sump > 81.5 Then OFF
    If Sump < 60.0 Then OFF
    If Power Apex Off 002 Then OFF

    Heater No. 2
    Fallback OFF
    If Tank < 79.1 Then ON
    If Tank > 79.5 Then OFF
    If Sump < 79.0 Then ON
    If Sump > 79.5 Then OFF
    If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
    If Tank < 78.6 Then ON
    If Sump < 78.6 Then ON
    If Tank > 81.5 Then OFF
    If Tank < 60.0 Then OFF
    If Sump > 81.5 Then OFF
    If Sump < 60.0 Then OFF
    If Power Apex Off 002 Then OFF

    Other than the additional sump temp probe, whats the difference?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombie View Post
    Assuming your heaters are properly sized, I actually see no issue with your hysteresis. I prefer this approach with two heaters rather than doing primary and backup (assumes at least heater 1 has it's own thermostat)

    Heater1
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF

    Heater2
    Fallback OFF
    If Temp < 78.0 Then ON
    If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
    If Temp < 77.8 Then ON
    If Temp > 78.1 Then OFF
    If Temp < 75.0 Then OFF

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    Zombie, if you were to add a 30 sec defer to this programming to filter out any short temp swing, where would you put it?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite0180 View Post
    Zombie, if you were to add a 30 sec defer to this programming to filter out any short temp swing, where would you put it?
    Placement of the defer does not matter as it applies to the entire outlet. I'd probably go with at least a 5 minute defer.

    Defer 005:00 Then OFF

  20. #20
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    Better yet, would this work?

    Heater1
    Fallback ON
    If Temp < 78.1 Then ON
    If Time 00:00 to 11:59 Then OFF
    If Temp > 78.9 Then OFF
    If Output TempHighPower = ON Then On

    Heater2
    Fallback OFF
    If Temp < 78.1 Then ON
    If Time 12:00 to 23:59 Then OFF
    If Temp > 78.9 Then OFF
    If Output TempHighPower = ON Then On
    If Temp < 70.0 Then OFF

    TempHighPower
    If Temp < 77.8 Then On
    If Temp > 78.5 Then Off

  21. #21
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    Good solution. As far as I can see that would work.

  22. #22
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    Hello everyone! I’m a newbie and trying to get everything set up correctly on the front end with my heaters so that hopefully I won’t have any issues in the future. I just received my new APEX EL and getting ready to program the power bar. I have two (2) Cobalt 150 watt heaters that I want to set up for my Waterbox Marine 30.2 AIO. Any suggestions on how to set these up for redundancy? Thanks

  23. #23
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    The code in post 20 plus the alert from post 12 would work well. There are two virtual outlets so you'll need to look up how to add those. Otherwise the 2 heater codes are just copy and paste as long as your temp probe is named the same. You also may need to adjust the values to match the temp you run.

    Let us know if you have any problems setting it up and we can help further.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicholb View Post
    The code in post 20 plus the alert from post 12 would work well. There are two virtual outlets so you'll need to look up how to add those. Otherwise the 2 heater codes are just copy and paste as long as your temp probe is named the same. You also may need to adjust the values to match the temp you run.

    Let us know if you have any problems setting it up and we can help further.
    Thank you for the response! I have also been seeing several people that have been using an Inkbird controller for multiple heaters and running that through APEX well. Will the coding be the same? I guess that would alleviate the need for virtual outlets as well?

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davbrunson View Post
    Thank you for the response! I have also been seeing several people that have been using an Inkbird controller for multiple heaters and running that through APEX well. Will the coding be the same? I guess that would alleviate the need for virtual outlets as well?
    The strategy is different when you use an Inkbird or similar controler. That happens to be what I am currently doing. The thought is that switching high wattage devices on and off frequently wear out a relay. So is you are going to wear out a relay it is better to wear out a cheaper controller than an expensive EB.

    If you do that, then you set the Inkbird up as your primary heat control and then set safety shut offs on your Apex. Like this. This code turns on the outlet so the Inkbird can work. The bottom two lines will shut off the outlet if the temp is more than 2 degrees above normal (I run 80F) and shut it off is the temp is unreasonably cool as that could indicate a bad temp probe. I also have those two lines in my alerts so I get alerted if either happen.

    [Main Heater]

    Fallback ON
    Set ON
    If Tmp > 82.0 Then OFF
    If Tmp < 60.0 Then OFF

    I also have another heater set as a backup in case one main heaters fail. The main heaters are a 200w and 300w both plugged into a BRS (made by Inkbird) controller. The backup is a 300w.

    [Heat Backup]

    Fallback OFF
    Set OFF
    If Tmp < 79.0 Then ON
    If Tmp > 82.0 Then OFF
    If Tmp < 60.0 Then OFF

    And finally I have this virtual outlet which tells me if the backup has run longer than 30 minutes. That would indicate a failed main heater. I have a line in my alerts to fire when the virtual outlet is on.

    [Heat err]

    Set OFF
    If Output HeatBK = ON Then ON
    Defer 030:00 Then ON

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