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Thread: Can two Apex base units be used together?

  1. #1
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    Can two Apex base units be used together?

    So a little background first. My Apex Base Unit is not working properly with the variable ports and I need to send it in for warranty repair. I don't want to be without the automation and unfortunately Neptune does not offer advanced replacement or loaner units or anything similar. However, they did offer to sell me another Apex Base Unit at a slight savings so that my system will not be down. I figure I'll find something to do with it anyways, and that is the reason for this post - exploring if 2 Apex base units can be run together. Is it possible to have two base units connected together, so I can use the second for additional ports/plugs etc? I'm guessing not, but figured it's worth asking. If not, I can always run two controllers on the same tank (gives me additional temp, pH, V1-4, etc).

    Bob

  2. #2
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Absolutely do not attempt to connect two Apexes together. Bad things will happen!!!
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    That's what I figured - thanks for the clarification!

    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    Absolutely do not attempt to connect two Apexes together. Bad things will happen!!!
    Come on, why not , on this note I just ordered a backup base unit, any tips on the easiest and or fastest way to get the configs copied over ? Cut N paste each channel ?

    Do I have to temp connect each device ie EB WXM first so it knows I have those ? Can I config without those modules currently attached ?

  5. #5
    Frequent Contributor jrlamountain's Avatar
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    tagging along i am about to do the samething

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    Master Control Freak aquamanic's Avatar
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    There's no easy way to transfer the settings from one controller to another.

    You can study this thread for instructions:
    http://forum.neptunesystems.com/show...ace+controller

    You can't really fully configure a controller without the modules and probes connected. Neptune automated the configuration of these so that it's plug and play. There's no user method to manually create those entries in the controller's database.
    Al

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  7. #7
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    You can have multiple Apexes on the same network, as long as they have unique IP addresses.

    You cannot connect two Apexes together via Aquabus - they will just fight.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

  8. #8
    Fish Whisperer cypherljk's Avatar
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    If you are going from the same type of controller to another controller if would be nice if there was a utility to clone the image over to the new controller. If the memory on the Apex is just flash it would be easy to write a tool. Although I am not sure of the software side effects it may have with unique storage keys such as the serial, Fusion token and other unique ID's / hashes....

  9. #9
    Master Control Freak aquamanic's Avatar
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    The serial numbers of modules are stored in the controller's database. That's why you can connect multiple modules of the same type and they're recognized as different modules. That's also the problem with getting a replacement for a defective module. When you plug it in, the controller sees it as a new module, not a replacement.

    I don't think a swap out utility would be as easy to develop as you think.
    Al

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    Fish Whisperer cypherljk's Avatar
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    Correct but the db is stored on the controllers flash memory which would be copied in the image. That would seem to take care of that issue..? Just not sure about any numbers that are truly unique to that physical device.

  11. #11
    Frequent Visitor BertL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cypherljk View Post
    Correct but the db is stored on the controllers flash memory which would be copied in the image. That would seem to take care of that issue..? Just not sure about any numbers that are truly unique to that physical device.
    No, that won't do it. While I tend to not try to speak authoritatively on this forum, as I'm far from being a guru, I am sure of the of present issues related to cloning a controller and what will and will not work. See the thread I started that Al referenced a few above... I explain what I tried and at the end, what will work in excruciating detail for anyone interested. I spent man days building and rebuilding dual controllers at least a couple dozen times so I would have a repeatable process in advance of going live with my tank, should my controller go down and I need to start with another while I was desk checking my controller during my tank build, later getting Neptune Support involved to assist and discuss. I've documented the easiest process there is to sort of "clone" a controller today in that thread -- it still takes me close to an hour to do, and is fairly tedious.

    Net is, as Al says, you cannot clone a controller. Issue deals with the way BOTH the aquabus works with auto assigning addresses, and where serial numbers are assigned and maintained in the modules themselves. The only way this could be resolved is if Neptune prioritizes building an independent migration utility of some sort that could somehow deal with both set of issues with two controllers that do or don't have the same serial numbers -- Neptune Support agrees. I put that requirement in the firmware wish thread, but until a lot of people ask for this too, I suspect it won't become a reality.
    Last edited by BertL; 08-28-2014 at 08:43. Reason: Fixed some spelling and hopefully clarified one point
    Bert

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    I am at the point now where I am getting nervous with 4 tanks running on one apex and a lot of livestock at risk, the though of not being able to restore a backup to a new head unit is very worrying. I had a head unit go down a few years ago and I ran out and bought a new unit and had to spend hours getting it set back up. Just the ability to have the programing printed out in an easily understood format would be a huge help.

  13. #13
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
    Just the ability to have the programing printed out in an easily understood format would be a huge help.
    Reeftronics' Apex Program & Profile Lister allows you to generate a nicely-formatted report of all outlet programs and profiles in HTML or PDF format. www.reeftronics.net, on the right sidebar under Tools.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Thanks

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    Frequent Visitor BertL's Avatar
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    +1 to using Reeftronics to create a PDF of your programming. I religiously backup (save) my programming every time I make changes of any substance, and at the same time use Russ' site to create a matching PDF. Between the two, I have an archive of what I've changed, and they provide me with almost everything that makes my Apex my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonty View Post
    ...had to spend hours getting it set back up.
    Yes, it is a time consuming process -- perhaps Neptune will build a "clone" utility one day that could make setting up a replacement controller really quick vs what it takes today. Until then, I would offer with a little advance planning, I can get a new controller loaded with the most recent firmware, aquabus modules assigned in the proper order, my saved programming loaded and tank operational again in probably 2 hours or less -- that's for my single tank, but 11 modules and 90+ outlets that no one wants to rekey from scratch if they can help it. It's meticulous work, but the trick is in preparation before you need to replace your existing controller, which includes:
    • making screen copies in advance of what does not get backed-up by the save option
    • physically numbering all your modules so you'll know what order to plug them in to a new controller so your programming will align properly
    • realizing all outlets will come ON when you do your restoration, so be sure your EBs are not plugged into the wall (only the aquabus) prior to restoration
    • after restoration of your saved .bin file, manual change status of any outlets to OFF that you need to, as well as do the manual updates to the items the Apex save function does not presently backup...
    • only then, plug your modules in, and your tank(s) are operating again
    • From there, at a more leisurely pace, one can do probe calibration as need be, rebuild their native/classic dashboards the way they want them; Delete their old controller from Fusion, add their new one back, and then setup the Fusion tiles they way they like them
    Bert

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    Thought I would resurrect this thread with a request for the ability not to clone but just for an easy copy to some kind of config file via fusion.

    I can manually pull down the instructions for each outlet and profile and cut and paste if needed but would be nice to have some kind of quick save feature that's available for copying purposes stored in fusion.

    My repairs base unit was $50.00.....didn't know Neptune gave discounts to customers needing a 2nd apex while their original was being repaired...I paid full price for the 2nd unit.

    Just put of curiosity. ..how much was the discount?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allentown View Post
    Thought I would resurrect this thread with a request for the ability not to clone but just for an easy copy to some kind of config file via fusion.

    I can manually pull down the instructions for each outlet and profile and cut and paste if needed but would be nice to have some kind of quick save feature that's available for copying purposes stored in fusion.

    My repairs base unit was $50.00.....didn't know Neptune gave discounts to customers needing a 2nd apex while their original was being repaired...I paid full price for the 2nd unit.

    Just put of curiosity. ..how much was the discount?
    There is a load/save in the classic dashboard. Now you still need to keep in mind all of the extra steps BertL mentioned, but it can be done if you are prepared or have support to help. I agree it would be nice to have this feature in fusion (especially if it would automatically backup).

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    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    You can have multiple Apexes on the same network, as long as they have unique IP addresses.

    You cannot connect two Apexes together via Aquabus - they will just fight.
    I've been planning on doing this for some time and I keep coming here to re-assure myself that I can.

    Getting ready to hook it up this week. Thanks!

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    Can an EB8 connected to one controller work off of another controller with a separate IP address?

    Any idea if an EB8 connected to one controller can work off of another controller with a separate IP address (i.e. if the temp gets to high in my QT tank can it turn off the heater in that tank?)

    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    You can have multiple Apexes on the same network, as long as they have unique IP addresses.

    You cannot connect two Apexes together via Aquabus - they will just fight.

  20. #20
    Master Control Freak RussM's Avatar
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    There is no way to do that directly.

    It is possible to do limited signaling between two Apex systems. In a nutshell, you use a relay powered by one Apex’s EnergyBar to give an open or closed indication to the other Apex’s via a breakout box.

    You’d need to have two wires running between the two locations, connected to the breakout box on one end and to the relay on the other end.
    Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.

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    Synchronize feed cycles between apex controllers

    Quote Originally Posted by RussM View Post
    There is no way to do that directly.

    It is possible to do limited signaling between two Apex systems. In a nutshell, you use a relay powered by one Apex’s EnergyBar to give an open or closed indication to the other Apex’s via a breakout box.

    You’d need to have two wires running between the two locations, connected to the breakout box on one end and to the relay on the other end.
    This is something I am interested in (maybe). I have replaced an Apex Jr controller with a new Apex controller system on my main tank. Now I am probably going to set the Apex Jr up on a separate smaller tank in another room that is not connected currently. Easy enough to setup Apex Jr to control the smaller tank and have it managed separately in Fusion. Is there a way, either using the scheme described above or otherwise, to synchronize feed cycles? For example: If I select FeedA on main tank, would it be able to signal the Apex Jr to enter FeedA at the same time?

    Thanks
    Larry

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