There is a breakout box for input switches like float sensors and the like. But I would need just the reverse: I have some 12 V and 24 V devices that I would like to control with my APEX.
The 110 VAC power bar outputs would be not only a waste but complete overkill (plus it wouldn't even work).
What I would need is something like a relay or photo transistor output box to switch 5 V, 12 V or 24 V devices?
Anybody else feels the need for such a module?
The demand would be way too low for neptune to make such a device. There are very few devices that would work with such a module, but EVERY low voltage device can be controlled by an energy bar with a 120V power supply.
That would mean you need to have a separate power supply for each small device plus and most likely an extra power bar.
Yep, but you gotta remember that for a business, a product can be sold at a much lower price when they make 10,000 vs 100 of something. Even if Neptune made such a device, the cost would likely be more than an energy bar plus the power supplies because of the low demand.
First of all, they don’t need to develop much because this would be pretty much the power bar control logic circuit minus the 120V relays and the power supply. If they wanted they could design it in a few days without breaking a sweat.
Second, I don’t think there would be only little interest in this. Most serious reefers are tinkerers who do a lot of DIY stuff.
And especially on the dosing side is a huge need that IMHO is not really met by the DÖS unit, because it is way too bulky and too expensive for just two pumps however good they may be.
+1 I have a use
Not true at all. These are just the brainstorming questions that engineering would need to research thouroughly to create this kind of device before they even start designing circuits.Originally Posted by ThRoewer
What is the optimal number of outlets?
Should every outlet be the same voltage or should they each use their own?
How do the power supplies connect?
How do the outputs connect?
How do you coordinate overcurrent protection without knowing the rating of the power supplies?
What is an approximate demand for each configuration, an approximate R&D cost, an approximate manufacturing cost, and wholesale cost? Does that have a potential for profit within one year?
You seem to appear in every thread where someone has an idea. You seem to try to explain it away or make the OP feel as though they are not thinking clearly or their brush stroke is not broad enough. There are a lot of clever people in this hobby.
This is an interesting list (sort of), but the OP does not seem to be looking for anything overly sophisticated. The existing BOB itself serves a simple yet, flexible function. It serves a specific niche. It was not designed to be a coverall.
Sometimes ideas simply need to float out there.
I am posing actual questions and comments that anyone at neptune would expect one of their engineers to have an answer for before management would even think about putting on the Neptune road map. If someone posts a request for something, they should expect a discussion and not just people agreeing with them. If I think someones idea is perfect as is, I will say so. If I think someones on the right track, but needs some refinements to make it to market, I will give them ideas. If I dont think something will make it on the market, I will say so and give them reasons why.
You don't work for Neptune or speak for them or their "road map" I would suppose. Forums are for opinions.....so be it.
I am not sure what a perfect idea is...that sounds like engineering talk. I have a software/hardware engineering background and now I am a product guy. I used to be awful at listening to people (e.g., requirements).
My first question to the OP would have been what are you trying to control and how?
Your first statement was: The demand would be way too low for neptune to make such a device.
I will say it again.....sometimes ideas simply need to float out there.
No worries.
If you would have read my initial post carefully and have an understanding of the matter you should actually already know all the answers. But just in case let me specify i:
1. Using the power bar logic it would be the number of outputs they have = 4 or 8 outputs.
2. The most universal solution would be every output has two terminals that are connected by either a conventional, reed or solid state relay. All that is needed are just multi-purpose contacts for 24 V and up to 2 A (~50 W). If the customer needs more power or a higher voltage he can drive an adequate relay with this contact.
3. see above
4. see above
5. see above
6. There will only be need for one configuration and if you check out all the various reef forums you will find that there is ample need. Plus if they offer it people will quickly find plenty of use for it.
As for all the other questions - how would I know and why would I care. It is internal and none of our business to discuss here.
Are you working for Neptune?
Otherwise I don't know why it would be any of your business to ask their questions.
If they feel this would be a good idea and want to discuss details they can contact me and I can explain it to them in person - I'm an engineer and live just a couple of miles away from their facility.
My first question would have been the same as yours if this was the first time this idea was brought up. In one case the guy ended up making a DIY doser using optically isolated relays, solid state relays, a 12V power supply, and 12V pump heads. It was a great idea in principle, but the guy ultimately ended up scrapping the project and getting BRS dosing pumps a few months later because the pump heads he bought all sucked. Another case, someone wanted this for 24V DC solenoids and discovered that 120V AC solenoids were the same price and changed his mind. In another case, someone wanted this for a series of warning lights and reminders. He ended up just hooking them up to energy bars. The moral of the story is that in every situation, there were several ways around using a module like this and the applications it is suited for were very limited and were almost entirely DIY type solutions, which neptune is typically not fond of catering to (excluding switch inputs). If they made such a module, I wouldn't be against it and might make for some fun projects, but I really doubt it makes business sense for neptune given the small need and the complexity needed in making it "one size fits all".
Well...I am sure this thread will be locked soon as is the way in this forum.
There is no moral to the story, just some thoughts from a poster looking to improve the automation of his environment.
The stories you describe above are adorable, but they have nothing to do with the OP.
Again, I think Neptune's business case for anything mentioned in this forum is above your pay grade.
Cheers....
Keep it civil. You want to debate the topic, fine - but leave the snide remarks out.
Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums for Apex help. PM me ONLY if the matter is of a private or personal nature. Thanks.
There is another reason that such a module would be needed: the power bar has only two low current (mechanical relay) outputs. All the other outputs are unreliable to switch low power devices. But most smaller powerheads, dosing pumps, electromagnetic valves and the like fall into the low power category.
So I either have to buy a lot of power bars and only use those two outputs or put dummy loads in parallel to my low power devices to switch them reliably - both rather bad options.
I agree, however, the majority of those low power devices are 120V and the remainder almost always use 5-24V DC with a pin type connector. For the 120V options, this device couldnt be used and for pin type connectors, the user would have to cut and strip the cable, connect the power supply with the correct polarity into the power input of Output module, and wire the cut pin into the output of the Output module. For a tinkerer this is no big deal. For the typical apex user, that is a lot of places they could mess up. They could roll the power supply and fry their load, or roll the output and fry their load. For that type of customer, it is far easier to just buy an EB4 that has 4 relay outlets and plug their device into that just like a wall.
Not trying to hijack the thread, but think this topic pertains to a question I had today......can 110v switches be powered thru the bob? Specifically, could a solenoid valve be switched open/closed if wired to the bob based on the position of a ato switch, or must it be plugged into a eb8 or eb4 and powered thru them?
Nope. The BOB is only for dry contact sensing and cannot power anything. You would need to use a relay outlet (4 or 8 or and EB4 outlet) for a 110V solenoid.
Lately I have seen several people that just cant be satisfied. I have no engineering knowledge I just have owned two service companies for over 30 years and I learned a long long time ago "That you can satisfy most of the people most of the time, but cant satisfy all of the people all of the time" no matter how hard you try.
There's a bunch of threads here that demonstrate that!
Al
I do not work for Neptune. Please do not send me PMs with technical questions or requesting assistance - use the forums!
For Neptune support send an email (don't call) to: [email protected] .
Manuals for all products including the Comprehensive Reference Manual can be found here.
And some people are just way too easy to satisfy.
A system that is advertised to satisfy even the übergeeks should give more possibilities for programming and customization: "...The possibilities are pretty much only limited by your imagination..."
Well seems my imagination goes way beyond that of their engineers...
So what exactly are you trying to do that you can't do without this new module?
In reality, he's trying to use fewer power supplies. What he is trying to do can be done now with EB4s.
Yeah, that's what I figured. The "possibilities are pretty much only limited by your imagination" quote implied there were things he couldn't do though.
Just seems to me that it makes sense to just use the eb4 if it can do everything. Way cheaper for Neptune that way.
Maybe all the switching can be done with the regular outlets but if your space is limited that is really not a good option, especially if you have to control a lot of very low power devices. And then there is energy efficiency - using a discrete power supply for each dosing pump, solenoid and whatever else wastes not only space but also energy.
Another thing I'm missing is the ability to do calculations, using variables or use advanced control algorithms like PID behavior for heaters, chillers or refill pumps.
Analog inputs to enable the use different sensors would also be nice.
My biggest complaint (about all currently available Aqua controllers) is that they are not designed to operate in the environment they will be in - high humidity, splash water and an overall corrosive environment. Even if not installed inside the stand but just somewhere near a saltwater tank, all the connectors metal parts will soon start to corrode.
I had a computer in a room with a couple saltwater tanks and after only a year it was rusty all over.
I would gladly pay extra to have a system that has watertight housings and connectors (yes, those exist, even for electrodes!)
All these are not impossible or outlandish demands.
There is a reason why there are still people doing DIY controllers despite many commercial solutions being available. Just check out the DIY forums on Reef Central.
The issue, as I see it, is that most of the engineers that plan or design these systems either don't know much about fish tanks or designing equipment for harsh environments.
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